Let’s face it: nowhere is perfect. There are lots of pros to living in Portugal but there are, unsurprisingly, one or two cons as well.
Most articles (and especially YouTube videos) focus on the upsides rather than the downsides but it’s important to get the full picture before you move somewhere new. Portugalist absolutely recommends that you consider moving to Portugal, but it wouldn’t be doing its job if it didn’t give you realistic expectations.
The problem starts with the YouTube vloggers who promote a false picture of what it’s like to live in Portugal. This is why so many are sucked into the dream of becoming an expat in Portugal. None of what the vloggers promote is a reality for day-to-day living. – Donna
It’s also important to point out that this is a list of the downsides of Portugal primarily from the point of view of an outsider (although some Portuguese people agree with some of the things on this list). It’s also not a list of things that Portuguese should change, and it’s definitely not a list of things that Portugal will change – no matter how sensible that change might seem to you. Portugal is Portugal, and you shouldn’t come here hoping for change or expecting change. Instead, weigh up the pros against the cons and then, being honest with yourself, decide if Portugal is right for you.
As one commenter points out, although there are some downsides to living in Portugal, there isn’t enough space on the internet to list all of the upsides.
Bottom line is, you found 23 things that suck about this place. But there isn’t enough space in the internet to list all the good ones. Pastries, food, wine, olive oil, roasted chestnuts outside of the metro station, crime stats, one of the lowest gun violence in the world, drug policy, beaches, water sports, the country side, Fado, fish and vegetable markets, the cheeses, chouricos, vineyards along the Douro River, the amazing amounts of different fruit and seafood (best in Europe), the people, the art, history, architecture, health care, actual freedom. – Danny
Similarly, despite pointing out a few downsides, Aaron lists a lot of upsides:
Amazing fruits and vegetables, amazing raw materials for good cooks (only partially taken advantage of in culinary traditions) lots of egg-creme pastries, cheap quality tipple, cheap quality meats, compassion for other humans (very important) and great emergency medical care (the SNS is great. consultations can take some time to get bookings for, and generally Concelhos will vary in terms of the competency and friendliness of the local health center and getting assigned a family doctor, etc.)
It’s a great place to raise children and generally very safe and family-oriented, which is probably the cause of some of the boredom I’ve complained about above. I get the sense that family and village life basically overshadow any independent decisions people make, and they are concerned about social judgement at every turn. – Aaron
With that in mind, here are a list of some of the different downsides to life in Portugal.
Pro: Attainable Residency Visas
If you don’t have an “EU Passport” and need a visa to move to a European country, Portugal can be very appealing for a number of reasons. Firstly, the visas are considered more attainable than other European countries: the D7, for example, requires you to have a regular income that’s at least more than €705 per month – an achievable amount for many people while the D2, or entrepreneurship visa, doesn’t specify a minimum investment amount.
For those that have cash to spend, the golden visa can be particularly appealing because it only requires you to spend an average of 7 days per year in Portugal in order to meet your residency requirements.
For many people, these attainable visas make Portugal a very attractive country as Portugal offers an easy route into Europe.
Con: Paperwork, Bureaucracy, & Inefficiency
Try to get anything done in Portugal, whether it’s starting a business or applying for planning permission, and you’ll run into hurdles. Often it’s paperwork related. Sometimes it’s just down to the fact things move slowly.
When it comes to paperwork, it isn’t so much that there’s a lot of paperwork. That in itself would be manageable. It’s that:
- Yes, there’s a lot of paperwork and lots of hoops to jump through
- Every government department seems to have a different opinion on which pieces of paper are required
- Departments are understaffed so getting an appointment, if you need one, can often takes months
It’s messy and frustrating, and it’s also just something you’ll have to get used to if you live in Portugal.
You can avoid a lot of the headaches if you use a lawyer or accountant rather than trying to tackle these challenges yourself. You’ll still have the challenge, and it’ll probably take a while for it to get resolved, but at least you’ll avoid the majority of headaches. Having a lawyer double check a rental contract, for example, might feel like an unnecessary cost but could save you money and a lot of headaches in the long run.
In all the countries I’ve lived in, I never needed a lawyer to sort my usually regular stuff like taxes, properties, banks. In Portugal, even if I can’t really afford it, I had to hire them. – KC
Being rich helps definitely to soften the high level of personal and state dysfunctions, your lawyer “knows” people at the city hall etc. Paying some “extra fee” here and there doesn’t really matter, its the price for a second villa in a sunny place. And they don’t have to rely on the Portuguese services, infrastructure or government. Being physically in Portugal is actually quite nice, it is just not so nice to be reliant on anything there. – Martin
As well as lawyers and accountants, there are also companies that will:
- Get you a NIF number or open a Portuguese bank account remotely for you
- Help you obtain your NISS or social security number
- Check what internet providers are available at your home
- Work alongside you when buying a property
- Help you pick the right insurance policies
It’s one thing saying paperwork but sef deserves its own category for a downside. We have been waiting for an appointment for more than 8 months and all the time get told there are no appointments available. This means that our id is now out of date. It’s sort of accepted in Portugal as people know about the delays but it means we are nervous to fly anywhere or leave Portugal unless it’s by land. A similar thing with the driving licence. It can take more than a year for your driving licence to be exchanged. They give you a piece of paper while you’re waiting but this means you are without a driving licence for a long time. It’s not suitable for visiting another country. If the only problem was obtaining pieces of paper it would be fine. The problem is the delay in getting appointments or documents returned. – Rowena
Portuguese bureaucracy and lack of customer service is another bad point. True that people don’t help you and you have to figure out everything by yourself. So frustrating. – Julia
I said I knew this wasn’t SF or NYC. Nonetheless, there is a difference between a slow way of life and some crucial things being less efficient than a 3rd world country. For example, the IMT (for foreigners: driver license government office) is basically completely broken at this point. Their driver license exchange process can take up to 2 years. Nobody answers the phone or emails. Tens of thousands of people like me are stuck either with a temporary license that only works in Portugal (so you can’t rent cars anywhere else if you travel), or with an expired foreign license (my case now). It’s pretty much the same for the SEF (immigration office). – Taurus1
Bureaucracy isn’t unique to Portugal, and it’s something you’ll come across in many European countries like Spain, Italy, and Germany, but many would argue that Portugal takes bureaucracy to new levels. Not everyone agrees, however.
Bureaucracy, well as I mentioned previously I am international I think Belgium, France and others have no less nor more bureaucracy than Portugal, and the corruption is probably about the same. – Frank
All that talk of bureaucracy and corruption in Portugal is way exaggerated! – Kurt
Pro: The Kindness of People
This one is quite subjective as everyone’s experience of the Portuguese is different. However, a number of people who have commented on Portugalist remarked at the kindness of Portuguese people.
Sometimes the kindness i receive from total strangers brings me close to tears. once i was leaving a metro station in the pouring rain trying to use a newspaper for cover when someone appeared beside me and offered me an umbrella and insisted i take it. another time i was trying to hail a cab with bags of shopping when an older gent told me they wouldn’t stop there and then proceeded to lift my bags and take me to a place where i could catch a cab and patted me on the back when i thanked him profusely…these are the best people i have encountered in Europe – unassuming, polite, warm and helpful to strangers and often showing such tenderness as you are unlikely to find elsewhere. There are many things to like in portugal but the best thing about portugal is the portuguese.
Gloria
And she’s not the only one.
I have lived in Central Portugal for a while and I have been shown nothing but kindness, eggs, vegetables and even a lovely casserole left on my doorstep.
Christine
Con: Housing issues
Portuguese houses can be cold in the winter – fridge levels of cold. However, it varies considerably from property to property. Some simply require you to put on a sweater while others demand a jacket, gloves, and three or four pairs of socks.
My electricity bill for the first winter month in Portugal was 3 times more than what I paid in Switzerland’s winter even though I already tried to accept/cope with lower indoor temperature! It was a nasty surprise. I’ve found ways to adapt by now so it doesn’t stop me from enjoying life in Portugal. – WL
The most disappointing part for me is that I am constantly freezing in their apartments due to the lack of heater and I am spending a fortune paying trying to stay a little warm. True that we have to stay fully dressed at home and it’s becoming unbearable those cheap constructions and energy drainers houses. – Julia
Two identical properties next door to each other could be different due to the ability of one to catch the sun during the day. Some properties also have central heating or another heating system while others have better energy ratings. Finding the right lottery is part knowing what to look for and part lottery.
However, just because you’ve purchased a cold house, that doesn’t mean you’re going to be cold forever. You can improve the insulation or install something like gas central heating or an effective pellet heater. All of that costs money, obviously, but it’s almost definitely worth it.
The cold and the noise, both due at least partly to poor insulation, are the main issues with Portuguese properties but at least one commenter has found an issue with the pipes in older houses as well.
These are all good but youre missing the biggest downside of them all…the flushes in the toilets. Some have been unbelievably weak!! If I’m going to be stuffing my face full of bacalhau and cream I want a crapper that can take a bit of a beating, not something I have to flush twenty times to get it to work!!! Is there bureaucracy in the pipes as well???! – John
This isn’t unique to Portugal, and it’s quite common across Southern Europe. Houses here are more designed for summer rather than winter. Thankfully, there are one or two things you can do to stay warm inside.
Pro: Ease of Obtaining Portuguese Citizenship
After living in Portugal for 5 years, you’ll be able to apply for Portuguese citizenship. This is much faster than in many other European countries. You need to have lived for 10 years in Spain, for example, before you’re able to apply for Spanish citizenship.
And, unlike many other European countries, you only need to show an A2 level of Portuguese. In comparison, Germany and Italy require a B1 level.
Con: Integration
In Portugal, the Portuguese and non-Portuguese typically run in different circles. Even people who have lived in Portugal for years will usually be able to count the number of close Portuguese friends they have on one hand.
Making friends- easy for me as my work entails meeting people. But if your work is by yourself and alone and do not involve other people, it can be hard and lonely. People stay with their close tight knit families and it can make you sad and lonely if you have that sort of constitution.
…the Portuguese are to me generally helpful, warm and friendly. Just don’t expect them to show up or call you after you feel like you’ve found a good friend. Most of the ones I met seem to strangely ghost, vanish, flake then they come up the surface again and your like super close again. Okay this might not be helpful but it does affect quality of life.-KC
It takes two to tango though. While the Portuguese can be a little closed, even to each other sometimes, very few expats make the required effort to integrate – at least after a few months of trying. Integrating is a marathon rather than a sprint, and one that requires you to learn Portuguese to a very good level. And it’s much harder if you don’t work in an office, attend university, or do something else that puts you in close contact with people for many hours every week. Putting in the effort is worth it, though. While it can take a long time to make Portuguese friends, particularly when compared to other countries, once you have a Portuguese friend, you have a friend for life.
If you make friends with a Portuguese, they will be your friend forever, and will be there when you needed it. In 2016 I came back to visit with my wife and two kids after living in the US for almost 20 years. My childhood friend that I haven’t seen in over 25 years, immediately invited myself and my entire family to stay with him and his girlfriend in his apartment in Lisbon. And this wasn’t even the only invitation extended, many other friends from my pass reached out wanting us to stay with them. – Danny
I really enjoy living in Portugal, for me its one of the best countries in the world, I find the people friendly and pretty much easy going, making friends is difficult for Portuguese are very family oriented, but I don’t see this is a bad thing. – Frank
…it’s been years and years since I dated anyone and I’m not ugly nor poor nor lazy, etc. I’m foreign. I will always be foreign. I will never enter their world, and that basically is clear to me, that underneath all the liberal-minded rhetoric, that one is welcome to be a foreigner spending money here, but that one is probably best off staying in ones own enclave. – Aaron
Because integration can be so challenging, that means you’ll have to mainly make friends with other expats. While most are wonderful people, and many will become lifelong friends, there are definitely a few you will find yourself trying to avoid.
I came to Portugal to be happy and I am happy to be here. Yes there are some things I wish were different but overall it’s a great quality of life. But unfortunately I don’t speak Portuguese so I am surrounded by these people [other expats]! – Carl
But just because it’s challenging to make friends, that doesn’t mean that the Portuguese aren’t friendly.
First of all, the people have been most welcoming. From immigration to getting paper work done, only USA immigration officials have been inappropriate and arrogant. Here, you’re treated like a human and not whatever label society has given you. I do notice that the Portuguese are friendly, but keep to themselves. I haven’t entirely been able to integrate with them although I am learning the language and can say a few things here and there. – EM
The challenges of making friends fast isn’t unique to Portugal. People who’ve moved to other Southern European countries like Spain and Italy, to Scandinavia, or to Eastern Europe often report the same challenges in integrating.
Pro: Large Expat Community
Integrating might be hard sometimes, but at least there’s a large, welcoming expat community.
Having a large expat community has its downsides – as it means people tend to integrate more into expat communities than local communities – but it’s definitely a pro when you first move. You’ll instantly be able to get to know other people, people in the same boat as you, and it’ll be easy to get answers to questions you have about settling in Portugal.
Con: The Language
Portuguese is nowhere near as difficult as Chinese, Arabic, or maybe even German, but many consider it harder than other romance languages and less appealing. That said, it doesn’t take too long to learn enough Portuguese to get by in daily life, and even in more difficult bureaucratic situations. However, it does take a long time to learn enough Portuguese to really integrate – but that’s true of all languages.
Learning European Portuguese is becoming a little easier thanks to all the new apps, websites, and YouTube channels that teach it (in the past there were only dry, boring textbooks). There are lots of great courses, particularly for beginner’s level Portuguese, that’ll teach you the essentials and help you pass those exams, should you decide to apply for citizenship or permanent residency.
I don’t mean to be contrary but I have to say I disagree with you about Portuguese being a difficult language, or it being any harder than other Romance languages. I would say Portuguese is the easiest Romance language for an English-speaker to acquire; the hardest is Romanian. – Fraser
And the rewards are there for those that put in the effort.
Culture is also one of the very best points about Portugal, from fine arts to poetry, prose, music, performance, theatre, but again, you’ll have to be embedded in the culture to enjoy these. – Emanuel Sousa
This is obviously unique to Portugal in that Portuguese is seen as harder than some other European languages, particularly Spanish. That said, it’s probably not any more difficult than German.
Pro: English is Widely Spoken
English is widely spoken in Portugal, particularly in the Algarve, Lisbon, Porto, and other Portuguese cities. In other parts of Portugal, English is less widely spoken but it still won’t take long to find someone that speaks English.
Although your intention might be to learn Portuguese, and to learn it to a fluent level, knowing that other people are likely to speak English is very reassuring – particularly when you’re speaking to a doctor, for example.
However, if you want to integrate even a little, you should definitely make an effort to learn Portuguese.
Con: Some Things are Expensive
A lot of people think that just because food and wine are cheap in Portugal, everything else is. Unfortunately, that’s not true.
Electricity and petrol are two good examples of things that are really expensive in Portugal. Per kilowatt, Portugal is one of the most expensive countries in Europe. It’s also one of the most expensive countries for fuel. Rent, particularly in somewhere like Lisbon, can be as expensive as a major Northern European city. Then there are cars, furniture, electronic appliances, books, branded international foods, cosmetics, and toiletries, all of which are typically more expensive than elsewhere.
It can be frustrating paying double or triple what you’re used to paying for something, but it’s often offset by the lower prices for other things (eating out, for example) and the fact that you get to live in Portugal.
Pro: The Food
At any Portuguese market, you’ll find a great variety of fish and seafood and excellent fruit and vegetables. Most large supermarkets, similarly, will also have a large fish counter. Price-wise fruit and veg is much cheaper than the US, and the quality is better. By European standards, it isn’t particularly cheaper but the quality is better than in many Northern European countries.
Eating out in traditional Portuguese restaurants is also extremely affordable, particularly at lunchtime. Here €10-15 can get you a 3-course meal complete with coffee and wine. International restaurants are more expensive and often non-existent in more rural parts of Portugal, but with access to good-quality, affordable ingredients, you’ll be able to make up some great dishes yourself at home.
Con: Standard Taxes
Portugal doesn’t have the highest taxes in Europe, but it definitely doesn’t have the lowest taxes either. Portuguese taxes, particularly when combined with social security, are high – at least in their simplest form. They can also be a little complicated, and requiring an accountant does add a cost that you might not have if you lived elsewhere.
We pay taxes like Germany but and have an income like Lithuania or so. – João Pedro
The Portuguese government does have several tax regimes and schemes which are designed to simplify tax payments and to make Portugal more appealing to outsiders. The most famous is the NHR tax regime, which is designed to reduce the amount of tax you pay in Portugal for the first 10 years and, in some cases, allows you to be taxed elsewhere. Despite its apparent simplicity, it can still be complicated and it’s recommended that you speak to an accountant to get an accurate overview of what your tax obligations are likely to be.
Pro: Compelling Tax Regimes
While Portugal’s standard taxes aren’t typically appealing, there are one or two ‘tax regimes’ where you could end up paying less, depending on your income. The most common is if you stand to benefit from Portugal’s NHR tax regime, which is a special tax regime aimed at newcomers and those returning to Portugal. It is particularly beneficial if you’re a high earner or have a particularly large pension but to be certain that you would benefit from it, you should speak to an accountant.
Another reason Portugal is considered attractive is its lack of a wealth tax, something which neighbouring Spain has and which can deter high net worth individuals from moving there.
Pro: Affordable Healthcare
Particularly for Americans and those outside of Europe, Portugal’s tax-funded healthcare system is a big attraction. There’s no need to worry about having the right insurance when you go to the hospital: access to public healthcare is considered a right.
For Europeans, Portugal’s healthcare system is less of a novelty and in reality it suffers from many of the same problems as other European countries: emergency healthcare is good, but waiting lists for non-urgent treatment can be long – sometimes more than a year or two.
However, one area in which Portugal trumps many other European countries is in the cost of private healthcare. Health insurance and the cost of paying out of pocket are much lower than in many other European countries, and many expats are able to use the private system for the majority of their needs, which often allows them to access better quality healthcare than they would elsewhere.
Con: Noise
Besides being cold, another problem caused by a lack of insulation is the way noise travels. This is more a problem in apartments rather than houses, but even houses aren’t immune from noise problems – the sound of barking dogs, which can sometimes go through the night, is a problem in rural areas.
The dog bark is absolutely unbearable, I have a woman living 100m away from me , in another house and she lets the little bastard on the balcony all day, today at 10 pm the beast is still barking, but apparently everybody of my so much appreciated Portuguese neighbours has no problem with this.! – Tom Baum
Generally speaking, however, most noise problems are with apartments. The most noise seems to come from the apartment above, but depending on the way the property is built, may come from the apartment below or to the side as well. As with the cold, noise problems can vary considerably from property to property, depending on when it was built, what floor the apartment is on, and who the neighbours are. In some apartments, you won’t hear anything. In others, you can hear the neighbour’s conversations almost word-for-word.
The dog barking I can just about deal with – it is the children that scream and run about, encouraged by the parents, as if the screaming should be shared by everyone. – Confoosed
As with the cold, these problems are somewhat fixable and can be avoided entirely if you spend enough money.
Noise problems aren’t unique to Portugal and are common in some neighbouring countries like Spain.
Pro: Inviting Beaches
Portuguese beaches, particularly those in the Algarve, have been voted as some of the best in the world. So if your dream is to spend your time soaking up the sunshine and listening to the waves, this is definitely the country for you.
As well as great beaches, Portugal also has several great surfing hubs such as Sagres, Ericeira, Nazaré, and Costa da Caparica.
If you’re planning on living inland, you don’t be disappointed either. Whether it’s the Douro, Gerês, Azores, Madeira, or Serra de Arrábida, Portugal has plenty of areas of natural beauty for you to enjoy.
Con: Treatment of Animals
Although it’s rapidly changing, the treatment of animals can be a problem in Portugal. In parts of rural and suburban Portugal, it’s not uncommon for dogs to be left chained up or on balconies all day (which is part of the reason that there are noise problems).
Dogs and the treatment of animals in general is a big problem in Portugal. – Andrew
This isn’t to say that it’s a problem everywhere in Portugal. While you will see mistreated animals from time to time, you will also see pets that are looked after to extremely high standards.
Pro: Lower Cost Of Living
This is a slightly trickier one, but for the most part, Portugal has a lower cost of living. Of course, it depends on where you’re coming from and what you’re buying. If you’re moving from New York or San Francisco to Portugal, you’ll notice a considerably lower cost of living. However, if you’re moving from the North of England or Spain, you won’t see a major difference and you might think Portugal is more expensive.
Portugal is cheap for some things and expensive for others. It’s cheap for eating out, for example, where a meal in a three-course lunch menu can cost you less than €10. However, other things like cars, utilities, and fuel are typically more expensive.
Again, it depends where you’re coming from. Americans typically find groceries and cell phone plans considerably cheaper than the US while many Europeans don’t notice a difference or find them more expensive.
Of course, it’s not just about price but the lifestyle you get for that price. There are few places where you can live close to the beach, enjoy fantastic weather, and eat out regularly for the cost of living that’s found in Portugal.
As an American living in Portugal, I can tell you that the Cost of Living is much better/cheaper here than in the USA. And the Quality of Life far better. And the people friendlier, the culture superior, etc. I couldn’t get out of the US fast enough and am much happier (and healthier) in Portugal.
Dan
Con: Dog Poop
Whether it’s the blue skies or the tiled walls, there are lots of beautiful things to look at in Portugal. Don’t look up too long, however. Doing so could mean you step in something you didn’t want to. Similarly, it’s always a good idea to really inspect the grass before sitting down for a picnic.
I have seen more dog poop on the sidewalks while in Portugal than I do in the US but in our Alentejo town, there are dispensers with free poop bags. – Ms G
There are two things that drive me totally mad in my country: dog poop/trash all over and cars parked in driving lanes and on sidewalks. – Andrea E
Dog poop is one of those minor downsides that you get used to with time, and it may not even be that noticable if you’ve lived in other European countries where it’s also a problem.
Pro: A Feeling Of Safety
There’s some debate as to how accurate the oft-quoted statistic of Portugal being the third safest country in the world is, but the reality is Portugal feels incredibly safe – especially when compared to the US, Latin America, and parts of the UK. It’s somewhere where children, the elderly, and women typically feel comfortable walking alone, even late at night.
In fact, Portuguese culture is incredibly family-friendly: children are adored and the elderly are treated with respect.
Con: Corruption
Ask a Portuguese person what the biggest downside to life in Portugal is and almost all will say corruption. According to Transparency International’s 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index, Portugal was ranked 32nd out of 198 countries for corruption[1]https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021. Backhanders can permeate every area of life, from your local council right up to the higher echelons of government. It’s just seen as a part of life or a tax for getting around the bureaucracy.
While corruption doesn’t affect most people’s lives on a day to day basis – you won’t have to bribe the police to get home – it does affect whether money is properly invested into the country and that can make a difference.
Con: Casual Racism
It isn’t a problem for most expats, but many people – particularly from Brazil and other former Portuguese colonies – report experiencing prejudice or being treated differently in Portugal. It’s probably not something you’re going to see on a day-to-day basis, but if you live here long enough and if you make friends with people of colour from Africa or South America, you may hear some stories.
As white American it doesn’t appear racists here as I don’t see confederate flags and other glaring examples but I know from Brazilians there is racism here. I have also heard comments from Portuguese about Brazilians that could be taken as racist. – Brian
But as one commenter points out, it’s quite a complex issue.
The best thing about portugal is its people. yes, they’ll scam you if you have to deal with them professionally and aren’t careful; yes, they won’t turn up on time; yes, i almost always experience racism especially when dealing with older people or in establishments that cater to rich people and the way they treat Africans can be jaw dropping. but they are always relentlessly humane. i know that i can always find the humanity in them; they are the most unassuming people i have ever met…
…Right in the centre of Lisbon is a square that has been colonized by Africans – i can’t imagine any other country in Europe allowing that (portugal has been cosmopolitan for hundreds of years). I have lived and travelled in many parts of Europe but nowhere have i seen Africans more completely at home than in Lisbon i have seen African women with their babies strapped to their backs and once an African woman carrying a load on her head and walking along. – Gloria
Casual racism is a problem everywhere, unfortunately, including many European countries. While Portugal fairs much better than many other Western countries, including the US, this doesn’t excuse the fact that it still occurs.
Pro & Con: The Slow Pace of Life
The slow pace of life is one of the main reasons that people move to Portugal, but that slow pace of life can also be a downside. When you have something that needs doing, suddenly you find yourself wishing that the slow pace of life wasn’t a thing in Portugal.
We live in rural Algarve, and our toilet seat broke 3 weeks ago. In 3 weeks, our landlord went 5 times to the local plumbing store. It was always closed for no reason, or the manager was on lunch break, and finally… they did not have the part. Our landlord thus had to drive 1 hour to a bigger store to get the part, which might or might not work… we will see soon. Maybe this week after 3 weeks, the toilet seat will be fixed. Maybe it will take a couple more weeks. In the meantime I fixed it with tape… I live in a villa for nearly $2000/month w/ utilities with a duck taped toilet seat. This is just a ridiculous example for how inefficient and slow everything is here. Our landlord is great, bless him for wasting so much time on this. But when a toilet seat takes a month to be fixed, it gives you an idea of the struggle everything else is….
…I don’t think that it’s necessarily that the locals are lazy. It’s mostly that they like it slow. They don’t see what the problem is with not answering the phone or closing the store unexpectedly. They don’t think it will bother anyone because nobody lives here to get things done. You live here when you have time. I’ve come to understand: it’s not their mistake for being slow, it’s mine for wanting to move fast in a slow place. This is not New York City or San Francisco where everybody is trying to make a gazillion dollars and everybody wants to help you get from A to B as fast as possible. This is not a place for ambition. This is a place for dolce vita, retirement and humble family life. – Taurus1
Even in simple tasks like going to the supermarket, you’ll find yourself queuing for a lot longer than you would in countries that don’t have a slow pace of life. It all depends on which you value more: the slow pace of life (for when you do want it) or constant efficiency.
This isn’t unique to Portugal, but common across most Southern European or Mediterranean countries.
Con: The “Glass Half Empty” Mentality
The Portuguese mentality can be frustrating for a lot of people, particularly for entrepreneurs and go-getters who see opportunities around every corner. In Portugal, people often look at the world in less optimistic terms. This is changing somewhat, and younger generations and those who have lived abroad tend to look at the world in more of a glass-half-full-sort-of-way but it a can’t do attitude is something you’ll come across from time to time.
Portuguese are deep thinkers and are compassionate really to the core. But if you tend to be on the anxious depress side, probably not great place as you’ll be surrounded with melancholy and sadness. It’s not obvious apparent but in years of living here, it does affect you. It’s the reason why people are flaky. Lots of anxiety and depression. – KC
Sense of humor is often lacking, but there is a lot of sincerity (often combined with unhappiness) – Gaius
I disagree with the cant do attitude being attributed to Portugal for this can’t do attitude is very much European. – Frank
This isn’t completely unique to Portugal, but it does seem to be more common in Portugal than in neighbouring European countries.
Con: Customer Service
In Portugal, it can sometimes feel like the customer is never right. Getting a problem resolved is often a battle of wills, and problems can take hours and hours of your time to get resolved. There is the complaints book (Livro de Reclamações) for when you can’t seem to get a resolution, but even that isn’t a threat to some companies (utility and communications companies particularly). Then there’s SEF (immigration), Finanças (tax department), and other government departments, all of which aren’t particularly popular in Portugal.
Again, this is something that is improving but it’s something you will come across from time to time.
When you do complain, there is more often than not a lengthy explanation about how it is not their fault but everyone else’s, how they are always the victim, or even insulting you. – Ava
In Portugal most services and companies will more or less spend some effort to attract your money, but after you pay you can forget about it. Once you pay, you are at their mercy and don’t expect high quality of service or goods. Forget about a refund unless it is a box store. They will respond to emails at their convenience and most emails won’t be responded if it creates inconvenience to them. – Gargantois Pantagrüell
The bigger downfall is the lousy quality of lawyers, accountants, and estate agents. Many are in each others pockets and at times, it feels like the wild west. – Jacob
Official complaints in “Livro das Reclamações” are useless. Service providers are always right and their operators rarely apologise. – Antonio
I think a lot of US people think “anything European” is romantic and the pace is slower, so you can relax more. However, once you get to the European continent, you immediately start comparing that culture to the US and then gripe because there is “no customer service, the bureaucracy, crazy drivers, etc”. – The Old Ranger
This isn’t unique to Portugal. Customer service isn’t always a big priority in Europe and government departments, particularly immigration, seem to be particularly unfriendly in most countries around the world.
Con: Workplace Culture
Sexism, micromanaging, not being allowed to show any initiative – talk to a Portuguese person about the downsides of living in Portugal and one of the main things they’ll mention is workplace culture. It’s not every company, obviously, but it is something that gets mentioned frequently.
All of what written here is true, as a Portuguese guy, life is hard for the average person here, there is no merit system in the workplace, it’s all about who you know, wages are the lowest in Western Europe, and civil society is dormant. – Portuguese guyy
Thankfully, it’s a downside that many foreigners moving to Portugal get to avoid as many bring their own jobs here, work for a foreign company, or move to Portugal for retirement.
Con: Job Opportunities
Portugal traditionally attracts much older expats, particularly retirees. There’s a reason for that, and that’s that people don’t usually come to Portugal to work: salaries are low by European standards, and there are a limited number of jobs here.
I don’t think Portugal is the right country if you are seeking employment, wages are very low, good jobs are hard to find; But for retirees and people with foreign income, it is a great possibility! – David
The good news is that, even though salaries are still a long way from catching up with other Western European countries, there are an increasing number of job opportunities in Portugal. Many people also bring their work with them – either starting a business here or working remotely for clients outside of Portugal.
This isn’t totally unique to Portugal: Across Southern Europe, job opportunities are fewer and salaries are lower when compared to Northern Europe. That said, Portugal does have some of the lowest salaries in Western Europe.
Con: It’s all about “Who You Know”
To get ahead in a lot of industries in Portugal, it’s all about who you know. This maxim is true in a lot of countries, of course, but it’s especially true in Portugal.
In a lot of English-speaking countries, like the UK and US, who you know opens doors but it doesn’t make it impossible to break into certain industries. In Portugal, not knowing the right people can make it impossible to do business in a lot of industries that you could break into in other countries.
This isn’t unique to Portugal and is quite common across most of Europe.
Con: The Driving
They drive like (use soft language) crazy and bring themselves and others in dangerous situations just to get in front of you to the get stuck behind the same truck we where already driving. – Martin
All the downsides are true however having lived in italy and Spain they are not unique to Portugal. If you want bureaucracy and crazy driving try Italy lol. – Mike
Whether it’s people flashing their lights because they’re desperate to overtake, drink driving, or tailgating, driving in Portugal can be challenging and sometimes scary. Indicators are rarely used, touch parking is common in the cities, and in rural parts of Portugal people often park diagonally across two or three spaces. It’s just one of those things about Portuguese life that you have to get used to and, depending on where you come from, it mightn’t be that bad at all.
Aside from the dogs running out into the street I think the driving in Portugal is fine. I would take driving here any day over driving in Southern California or along the US East Coast. The gas here is ridiculously expensive though, probably double to triple what it costs in the US (about $2 per liter). – Jerry
This isn’t unique to Portugal. According to Statista, in 2018, there were more road accident fatalities in 10 other European countries like Romania, Greece, and Luxembourg. However, Portugal faired worse than neighbouring countries like Spain, France, and Italy. And although people often drive somewhat aggressively, it’s definitely milder than the road rage most Americans will be used to.
Con: The Cold Ocean
A lot of people move to Portugal for the beaches and are surprised by just how cold the water is. Yes, it can be very cold because it’s not the Mediterranean Sea: it’s the Atlantic Ocean. It’s one of those small downsides, but something to consider if you’re planning on spending a lot of time in the water. If you’re a surfer, the quality of the waves may make up for the temperature of the water.
Another really disappointing point is that despite all those beautiful beaches, it’s impossible to swim due to the ocean being so cold. I wrongly assumed that the water would be as nice and warm as the Mediterranean sea, big mistake. – Julia
Take cold ocean for another example, I also kind of knew it but still hoped to find warmer ocean down the south. Once I realized that I can’t stay in the ocean comfortably for more than 30 minutes in Lagos – one of the most visited areas in Algarve in southern Portugal – even in August, I gave up the ideal of limiting myself to southern Portugal. – WL
This is unique to Portugal. Other Southern European countries like Spain, Greece, Italy, and Cyprus are all on the Mediterranean Sea so typically have warmer waters.
Con: Overtourism
In the past few years, tourism has boomed in Portugal. Lisbon, in particular, has become one of the hottest destinations to visit and it has attracted millions of tourists from all over the world. Porto, and the Algarve, likewise, have seen a huge increase in tourism as well.
Unfortunately, places like Lisbon and Porto are much too small to handle the sheer volume of tourists that are visiting. The streets are narrow, and the cities themselves are quite compact and small. Historical attractions like the Torre de Belém in Lisbon or the Clérigos Tower in Porto are often full to the brim and very uncomfortable to visit.
Tourism has also led to other problems in the local housing market and has put a strain on public transport and other services. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like over tourism is going to decrease anytime soon, particularly as the Portuguese economy is so focused on tourism – and doesn’t look like it’s going to dramatically shift to anything else anytime soon.
Insane amount of tourists who are here because Anthony Bourdain raved about it or whatever. Even the smaller cities outside of Lisboa feature the ubiquitous “instagram tourist spots” so you will be sure to see all the brain dead people stumbling off of huge buses, waiting their turn to take a selfie in front of some giant letters or a fountain. – Mike
This isn’t completely unique to Portugal. Lots of other cities like Barcelona and Amsterdam are struggling with overtourism.
Con: Deliveries & Customs
Many people who move to Portugal come from countries where online shopping is extremely developed, to the point where they can get their orders on the same day. That’s not the case in Portugal, especially as most online shopping is done with companies outside of Portugal. In fact, a huge percentage is likely with Amazon Spain.
The challenge of getting things delivered, whether an online shopping order or a letter from overseas, is a constant complaint amount expats. It is something you get used to, though, and, like many of the other things in this list, is a small price to pay for what you get in return.
The Postal Service (CTT). It is ASTONISHINGLY inefficient and bureaucratic. Many times things simply do not get delivered. The employees are exceptionally unhelpful. – Gaius
It’s all okay except the fact that when we order something from a foreign country it takes like 1 to 3 weeks to arrive to Lisbon, but from Lisbon to the Azores we almost always wait for 1 month to 2 months!!! – Alberto
While we’re on the subject of shopping, it’s worth mentioning Portuguese customs. Just about every country has a customs system which charges import fees on products purchased abroad. That’s annoying but reasonable. In Portugal, however, the fees charged for anything imported from outside the EU are so high that it’s not unusual for import charges to equal the value of the product purchased (and sometimes they’re even more). Even gifts that are clearly handmade by family members are stopped, valued at much more than they could ever be worth, and slapped with big import charges.
Even if you agree to pay these charges or they have been prepaid, it can take days, weeks, and even months to get your deliveries released from Portuguese customs. Basically, try to avoid shipping anything from outside the EU (excluding your belongings if you have a certificado de bagagem as these will be treated differently).
Con: The Smoking
While smoking is on the way out in many countries, smoking is still reasonably common in Portugal. While one commenter like
Second hand smoke is present everywhere here, public transportation, parks, outdoor cafes and restaurants, beaches, where you work and live and so on. – Carlos
Portugal has been slower to phase out smoking in bars and restaurants than many other European countries—while most restaurants and bars are non-smoking, you will stumble across places that still allow it in sections—but new laws coming into place in 2023 are likely to make smoking even less common inside[2]https://www.publico.pt/2022/06/02/sociedade/noticia/fumar-restaurantes-bares-vai-quase-impossivel-portaria-so-entra-vigor-inicio-2023-2008597.
Portugal definitely isn’t the only European country where smoking is common. It’s similar in France, Spain, and Germany.
Comments Policy: This article attracts a mixture of comments: some people who believe the pros of living in Portugal outweigh the cons and others who are frustrated with life in Portugal and want to vent their anger. While comments pointing out the negative sides of Portugal are allowed, there’s a diplomatic and a constructive way of doing this and there’s a way that’s unhelpful and simply negative. Comments that are negative and without any substance will be removed.
I have been visiting Portugal for 10 years to visit my prima who moved there 14 years ago. From my experience and learning through her all of your downsides are very accurate and reasonable. Beaurocracy being the most difficult and nearly enough to just walk away from the country entirely! Really like your blog - it's helpful! Leaving for Tavira again tomorrow, so looking forward to being back.
Thanks for the kind words, Janine!
Coming to Portugal is a real shock coming from 11 years in Switzerland which punches well above its weight and has a can do attitude like the USA. Portugal however I have found has a very stratified social culture that is more like the Middle ages... The Aristocrats, the civil servants, the trades people and the serfs. Most portuguese refuse to take an active involvement in government, unlike Switzerland where people feel they are the Government. I live in Cascais, outside the city the land is poor for farming, in germany you would see millions of solar panels with 300 days of sunshine here thats a lot of electrical generation, but what do the portuguese do sell the electrical grid to the chinese how smart is that. There seems to be a national cultural complex of low level depression, which leads to your can't do/ attitudes, what in psych;ology is called psychomotor slowing. You have a paradox of a Socialist Government but the real power resembles the south korean Chobo system where most of the GDP is concentrated in wealthy family business, often people dating back to the old aristocracy. A nurse with sub speciality training makes 1000 euro monthly, A pharmacist never more than 5000. I have a relatively nice life here but I don't know if i want to live where there is such income disparity. Old People in lisbon last year were dying from the cold but you had to read about it in the Spanish newspapers. I suspect a lot of this passivity is left over from the dictatorship and some will argue there never was one! If this were France it would be man the barricades but in Portugal its man the football stadiums. I have found in this world its not what you ask for its what you demand. Portugal is a kind of pseudo social democracy.
Coming from South Africa, most of these points are actually far better than what I'm used to. Lol, I guess you could call then all First World Problems!
Hi James, thank-you so much for sharing your experience. I have shared it on a group called "South Africans helping South Africans in Portugal " because i am sure it will be of great help to those that are iether coming here or planning to.
Would you please consider joining the group because I'm sure you will not only enjoy all the helpful posts and comments but you would surely be able to contribute immensely, seeing as you know Portugal so well. I'm sure our Group Admin, Steve Robinson would welcome someone like you with open arms. Stay well.
Justice (courts) is another thing. Too slow, to easy to appeal. Basically it is a blocking point of economy.
Thanks, Katerina! Hadn't thought of that one.
Hi Carlos,
Thank you so much. I hadn't heard of that group, but will definitely join.
I lived in Uruguay for three years and your 14 points are almost identical descriptions of that country. While seeing the list prior to moving would not have kept me from relocating, my frustration level could have been reduced by a realistic understanding of what to expect! Every expat, and especially potential expats, should see these points. Great list...thanks!
Hi Daniel,
Yes, I think appropriate expectations is key.
You forget dog poop all o ver the floor and vandalism grafite covering even train Windows. I also do not agree in the Language matter. Chinese is easier than portuguese. At least to learn to speak.
Hi Art,
Definitely dog poop is a problem, although that seems to be common throughout a lot of Europe. Graffiti does seem to be unique to Portugal though.
Also, interesting comment re: Chinese VS Portuguese.
Had to go through 3 meetings with Camara Municipal to change kitchen floor and shower stall in my Lisbon apartment - and was still told that I needed to file a request online and it would take a year to get a permit..... and my architect casually mentioned that any foreigner who hires a contractor, electrician, plumber, painter in Lisbon usually is charged far more than a native client. Frustrating, but also understandable.
I think this dual pricing for foreigners and locals is common in a lot of countries. Not everyone does it: it depends on the individual person/company.
I think this dual pricing for foreigners and locals is common in a lot of countries. Not everyone does it: it depends on the individual person/company.
Great info. Moving to Porto from the US at the end of the year. The bureaucracy is something I've been reading about all over the internet. Although, currently living in Los Angeles, it sort of feels the same way. Most people end up doing construction to their homes on the weekends, here, to avoid getting asked about permits. The city makes it extremely difficult and the costs for permits is sometimes more expensive than the construction, itself. Also, fuel is insanely expensive (almost $5/gallon). I am surprised to read about the dog poop thing. I have a dog and have read in many places that Portugal isn't very dog-friendly. I wonder if this is part of why, haha. Luckily, I always pick up after mine!
Hi Blake,
Bureaucracy is definitely an issue. It's not so much having to fill in paperwork that's the issue, it's working out which paperwork that you need to fill in. In another language that gets even more difficult. Things just tend to stall.
I guess you guys have more expensive fuel than the rest of the US. It'll still be slightly more expensive here, but not as expensive as if you were coming from somewhere else in the US.
Ola friends and thank you for putting this resource together
Is there a sight or a section where expats can look up vendors to use or avoid? I have been taken for a terrible ride by a construction company called Artys and want to be sure that no one else falls into that money pit. I love Lisbon but have learned many things the hard way- and also been pleasantly surprised. Perhaps we can all help one another and continue to build community as you have kindly helped to do!
Best of luck everyone!
Nirit
I don't know of one, but it seems like something that needs to exist!
Hi there. Thanks for all the insider info. After 15 years living and working in the Bahamas, we are ready for retirement return to Europe. Having the Dutch nationality and experienced the Caribbean mentality we will probably not be shocked by the cons of moving to Portugal. How is the winter climate in the area around Porto?
Hi Renate,
It's quite grey and damp, not unlike what you'd find in the North of Europe in terms of colour although it's definitely milder. The problem isn't so much the weather but the housing which tends to be very cold in winter. Central heating is rare here, but you can get it and I imagine that it would solve the problem. Alternatively, there are lots of different stoves that do quite a good job.
It sounds like Latin America with cold water :/
It sounds like Latin America with cold water :/
Hi Everyone,
I have actually never left a comment anywhere online before, so here is a first. The article really resonated with me. I found every point accurate. I've been living in the Algarve for a year now, having physically moved from Toronto, Canada ( thou mentally still partly there) and have found many things challenging and frustrating, such as the bureaucracy, and the "can't do" attitude as well as little cultural perspectives and ways of doing things. I will be running my own Paint Nights in Algarve business and am definitely feeling some intimidation and discouragement. I think integration is difficult and Id really like to find myself in an english speaking community with a lot more "can do" attitude. Luckily I do speak portuguese but I don't really feel that I relate to the portuguese community. I could go on and on, but just wanted to say thank you for the post, helped validate my own observations and lighten my soul.
Hi Everyone,
I have actually never left a comment anywhere online before, so here is a first. The article really resonated with me. I found every point accurate. I've been living in the Algarve for a year now, having physically moved from Toronto, Canada ( thou mentally still partly there) and have found many things challenging and frustrating, such as the bureaucracy, and the "can't do" attitude as well as little cultural perspectives and ways of doing things. I will be running my own Paint Nights in Algarve business and am definitely feeling some intimidation and discouragement. I think integration is difficult and Id really like to find myself in an english speaking community with a lot more "can do" attitude. Luckily I do speak portuguese but I don't really feel that I relate to the portuguese community. I could go on and on, but just wanted to say thank you for the post, helped validate my own observations and lighten my soul.
Hi Maria,
Thanks for commenting! Integration is definitely difficult, and it takes time.
It's exciting to hear that you're launching a business on the Algarve. I hope it goes well, and you keep that "can do" attitude 🙂
Hi Maria,
Thanks for commenting! Integration is definitely difficult, and it takes time.
It's exciting to hear that you're launching a business on the Algarve. I hope it goes well, and you keep that "can do" attitude 🙂
Great information; my wife and I are talking about retiring in Portugal. No real time table established yet. Sounds like a lot of research needs to take place as you would expect.
Thanks again..
Hi Joe,
Definitely a good idea to do your research. In my opinion, the best research is to spend 6 months - 1 year here before committing to anything (if that's possible for you).
Maria, did you move there alone? I am also a female from TO but living in the US and am quite serious about moving to Portugal. I was wondering if you'd be willing to shoot a few emails back and forth with me about your experiences there, why you moved there, etc.
Hi I just have 4 weeks. And I'm living in Madeira the bureaucracy is incredible high . I was buying a car, the story is so long to tell here. the mentality of the people is negative. Some forums say life is slow and relax . I see more life is inefficient to do something . In Madeira bus stops are horrible designed . Seems like government here just give the leftover to people and steal money. I have a company in the United States . I was thinking expanding on Europe starting in Portugal because I have relatives here. I just quit the idea . I will go to Germany or uk instead . Now i understand no investment in Portugal
Hi.
After four years in Costa Rica, all these things are pretty much the same here. I guess the Spanish and Portuguese exported much of their culture when they came here.
Hi Maria
We just moved to Portugal and I enjoyed reading your post. I was born and raised in Toronto and have always admired immigrants with respect to how brave they were to leave their comforts (language, culture..) behind and start over. All the best of luck in your adventures.
Sandy
Thanks for the info
Hello , i just came across this site and been reading all comments, im from BC , been really thinking of moving to Portugal and im in the Hair and Fashion industry, any advice about opening a salon or working in one would help, i have never been to Portugal so need advice on which areas would be good, thanks!
Hi Arif,
Not an industry I know anything about, so unfortunately I won't be able to give any specific advice.
If you did move to Portugal, what are you looking for? If it's a city, Lisbon or Porto are probably going to be the main places to focus on. If it's beach, the Algarve should be your focus. If it's something more of the beaten path, there's a lot more of Portugal to look at.
It´s a unique place. Sort of a bottom first world/elite third world mix that most people aren´t prepared for. Most graduates want to leave (wages, job opportunities, lack of connections). If you have alot of money and come from another wealthier country it may or may not be to your liking. I think of it as Portugal is to the rest of Europe as Mexico/Latin America is to the US and Canada. Somewhere to get away from it all after you´ve made your nest egg. Definitely not somewhere to become a self made success.
Good luck to those with the courage to come here. Make sure you keep something back home, alot of people end up not being able to leave because they left no anchor in their home countries.
It´s a unique place. Sort of a bottom first world/elite third world mix that most people aren´t prepared for. Most graduates want to leave (wages, job opportunities, lack of connections). If you have alot of money and come from another wealthier country it may or may not be to your liking. I think of it as Portugal is to the rest of Europe as Mexico/Latin America is to the US and Canada. Somewhere to get away from it all after you´ve made your nest egg. Definitely not somewhere to become a self made success.
Good luck to those with the courage to come here. Make sure you keep something back home, alot of people end up not being able to leave because they left no anchor in their home countries.
Certainly the root of all issues in Latin America comes from the heritage of Portugal and Spain, hundreds of years (and a few generations) ago!
Certainly the root of all issues in Latin America comes from the heritage of Portugal and Spain, hundreds of years (and a few generations) ago!
Sounds like another godless country with no real Christian standards, honesty, integrity, etc and therefore a no-can-do attitude and depressive people. Govt corruption will get worse. Will never leave third world status.
Sounds like another godless country with no real Christian standards, honesty, integrity, etc and therefore a no-can-do attitude and depressive people. Govt corruption will get worse. Will never leave third world status.
Portuguese is a Roman/Latin language, related to Spanish, French, Italian, and Catalan. I have a degree in Spanish and French and have traveled in the Latin countries a lot, so even though I've never studied Portuguese I can understand half of what I read, and I can easily speak common phrases like bom dia, muito obrigado, etc. It's just ridiculous to say that Chinese is easier to speak. Non-Western languages like Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, etc. are NOT in any way, shape or form easier than Portuguese!!!
I am a 64 yr old woman. I have decided to go to Portugal for a month and see if I want to relocate from the U.S. If things seem ok in that month I plan to move temporarily for a yr to see if I want to relocate for a longer period of time.
One of the most attractive attributes is the number of British expats. I am learning the language but it would be great to be around English speaking people.
I have no desire to live on the coast since I am currently living on a barrier island off FL. I love cold weather and find so much sunshine oppressive.
Can anyone direct me to the part of Portugal which could could provide these things? And of course cheap is good. I will not be looking for any type of employment.
One more question—is there a realtor who could help me find a place to stay for a month.
Thanks.
Shannon
Has anyone herein considered Bucharest? Easier language, and Vlad the Impaler, what’s not to like!?
Has anyone herein considered Bucharest? Easier language, and Vlad the Impaler, what’s not to like!?
Tom and I are in our early 70's and hope to retire to Porto in October of this year. Our situation is that we will have to sell everything, our home, cars, furniture, etc to make this possible with our limited retirement. So basically bringing our cloths and hopefully renting an apartment from new friends who are English and bought an apartment in a renovated building in Porto. Do not plan to buy a car but use public transportation.
I guess my question would be, would it be possible to travel around Portugal and other areas of Europe by just relying on trains, buses, etc and be able to afford to do so. We are adventurous, can travel with backpacks, share our meals and want to see what life has to offer. Any experiences would be welcomed.
Hi Diane,
Yes, you can definitely get around by public transport and it's very affordable as well. I bought a bus ticket from Lisbon to Porto recently, and I think it was €9. That was a special offer but, given that you're over 65, you should be entitled to a discounted rate on trains and most buses anyway (50% on trains) so your transportation costs will be low.
Food is also affordable here. The markets especially are very good value if you want to keep costs low and cook at home and I'm sure you'll find plenty of restaurants that are affordable as well. You might have to look harder in a city like Porto, but they're there.
The biggest expense is going to be accommodation, again especially in a city like Porto. If you already have arranged your accommodation through friends of yours then you're off to a great start. Otherwise, cities like Lisbon and Porto are expensive to rent in at the moment and may not be the best option for rent. That's not to say it's impossible, especially if you're willing to live a little further out of the city centre, but there are definitely more affordable parts of the country.
Keep me posted on the big move, and feel free to ask anymore questions.
Hi Shannon,
Most people don't go to Portugal for the cold weather - especially British expats 🙂
I don't know if there's any part of Portugal that isn't warm in the summer, but the North of Portugal is quite cold and damp in the winter. It is similar to an Irish or Northern European climate and may be close to what you're looking for. As mentioned, this isn't what a lot of expats are looking for so the number of expats living there is going to be smaller but there are definitely more and more people moving to places like Porto, Coimbra, and Castelo Branco as well - including an increasing number of people from the US.
With the exception of Porto, those places will be quite affordable. Castelo Branco is especially affordable.
The South of Portugal e.g. Lisbon, the Alentejo, and the Algarve are all be very hot in the summer so you can probably rule there out - especially the Alentejo.
Another place to consider would be the island of Madeira as it never gets too hot. It also doesn't get too cold, though, so take a look at the month-to-month temperatures and see if it's cold enough for you. There are lots of expats living there.
As for the realtor, it may be better renting through Airbnb or something like that (anything over 28 days is considered long-term on Airbnb). Realtors tend to focus on rentals of six months or more. Not to say you won't find one that'll do a 1-month rental, but 1-month is usually too short for them.
Here's a guide to renting long-term with Airbnb: https://www.portugalist.com/airbnb-long-term-rentals/
Hi Shannon,
Most people don't go to Portugal for the cold weather - especially British expats 🙂
I don't know if there's any part of Portugal that isn't warm in the summer, but the North of Portugal is quite cold and damp in the winter. It is similar to an Irish or Northern European climate and may be close to what you're looking for. As mentioned, this isn't what a lot of expats are looking for so the number of expats living there is going to be smaller but there are definitely more and more people moving to places like Porto, Coimbra, and Castelo Branco as well - including an increasing number of people from the US.
With the exception of Porto, those places will be quite affordable. Castelo Branco is especially affordable.
The South of Portugal e.g. Lisbon, the Alentejo, and the Algarve are all be very hot in the summer so you can probably rule there out - especially the Alentejo.
Another place to consider would be the island of Madeira as it never gets too hot. It also doesn't get too cold, though, so take a look at the month-to-month temperatures and see if it's cold enough for you. There are lots of expats living there.
As for the realtor, it may be better renting through Airbnb or something like that (anything over 28 days is considered long-term on Airbnb). Realtors tend to focus on rentals of six months or more. Not to say you won't find one that'll do a 1-month rental, but 1-month is usually too short for them.
Here's a guide to renting long-term with Airbnb: https://www.portugalist.com/airbnb-long-term-rentals/
I have lived my whole life out of Portugal but I love the " sit back " approach . Can't wait to retire in the top 3 safest country
Bureaucracy, Janine. Hmm. Maybe Portuguese isn’t the only language English speakers struggle to master.
Castelo Branco is extremely hot in the summer. If you want cooler weather, move toward the Beira Littoral, where you get the Atlantic’s weather influence even 1 hour inland.
Thanks Jude! I know Coimbra can get very hot in the summer, but maybe it's better near the coast.
Not sure if there's anywhere in mainland Portugal that doesn't get hot in the summer.
Too true, I was at the reservoir campsite at Idanha a Nova this August for 2 weeks. It was 38c mostly and dropped to 36c for a few days. We only survived by swimming in the reservoir and the campsite pool. So hot, but what an absolutely stunning place.
Hi Zane
Lived in Cape Town a few year, now heading for Portugal to
check out the country. Sure do miss Cape Town.
Dwight Lurie
Miami
James, great article! My wife and I are moving to Cascais next year.
I'm Brasilian and she's Polish/British and reading all the comments above is clear the disparity of opinions, naturally (disregarding the ignorants and stupids) but I believe everything is a matter of perception, the moment in life, spirit and of course $$$$$. It seems that expats only want to make a lot of money, have an easy life in a warm, charming country seeking for "quality of life" and they forget that they have responsibilities as well.
Before considering anywhere, how many of you though: how can I contribute to make that place better? To make people happier? To reduce the disparity of wages? Gender pay gap? To warm people dying on the streets because of the winter? It's easy to get your wallet out and demand things that firstly you're not offering and then sit behind your mobile or MacBook and bad mouth around the internet. You will find amazing things and terrible as well anywhere...some places more than the others, but I insist: what you're gonna do about it?
As you said James: when you "decide that the good outweighs the bad and this really is a place that’s worth staying in". I would add "...staying in and contributing".
We have been living in Berlin, Germany for three years and even living comfortably, relative good wage, good public transport, speaking German, having german friends, working for a german company there's no welcoming, warm conversations are rare and more than that, there's a generalized lack of joy. Not mentioning the terrifying bureaucracy (everything is on paper and via post). It's hard to get things done here as well...german efficiency? Hmmm not sure, but we're here, we decided to be here and we do everything we can do in the best way possible.
We've been to Cascais and we decided to move there next year because we want the "slow pace of life", warm weather (even if it costs us a bit more to heat the place and stay comfortable). Coming from São Paulo, Brazil might make a bit easier for us (she lived there for 10 years despite all the problems) to deal with the cons. Maybe...but that's not the point. Let unite to make the community better! Btw: any Facebook group as "English speakers in Portugal" or something similar? That could also help those seeking for help in finding an apartment/house. I'm quite experienced in real state as well 🙂 I would love to help others!
Now keep in mind: we make the place good or bad for ourselves, we are responsible for that, not the Portuguese population, Portuguese government, companies, etc. It's their home and if you want Portugal to be your home be ready to get out of your comfort zone and work hard to make it better and live with the cons 😉
Happy days to y'all!
Uau, you really got the whole picture. I lived in Portugal för 40 years and when it was time to decide the future of my kids, I chose to leave the country. You get ti nowhere there and I couldn't risk it...even missing my family and friends. It's like the country is made for a certain elite and even belonging to that elite one must work hard to get the favors....it works on pure kinship, unfortunately. Sometimes I even laugh of some episodes where politicians are caught... Hopeless and No one cares, after all, everyone is happy for having so many tourists, and selling houses... That's pretty much it.
Hi Philip,
Great comment and yes, I agree, a place is what you make of it.
I don't know how to solve some of the big problems (wage disparity, for example) but it's definitely possible to get involved in a charity like Re-Food and distribute food to the homeless. Sometimes it's hard to find out about these initiatives and maybe you'll have to start them yourself, but it's definitely possible to contribute.
Even smaller things, like starting local a local group (say a book club) can make a difference to a community and can bring both Portuguese and expats together.
There are definitely a lot of opportunities to contribute.
Also - yes, there are loads of Facebook groups for English speakers in Portugal e.g.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/915501201927854/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/expatsinportugal/?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/groups/265570920476558/?ref=br_rs
There's also a good "expats and locals" meetup in Lisbon around once per week, and I know a few people come in from Cascais:
https://www.meetup.com/en-AU/Lisbon-Expats-Locals/
Hi James, I too live in LA, and leaving to Portugal in a few weeks. I would very much like to speak with you. Not sure how this forum works but would be great if you read this and get in contact. I'm on the westside.
Hi Carla,
Pleased to meet you, and hope the move to Portugal goes well. Feel free to ask me any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them or at least point you in the right direction.
Not sure if anyone here can help but we are moving to Portugal and bring all our belonging via ocean.
I have done extensive research as far as rules and regulations on what to bring or not to Portugal and visited all sources. The most updated information is here and I learn that Import to Portugal is not that complicated.
https://usgshipping.com/shipping-to-europe-from-usa/shipping-to-southern-europe/shipping-to-portugal-from-usa
but since we are moving to an Island I could not find a company offering the door to door service. I am wondering if anyone here knows a good Customs Broker in Lisbon who can help with clearing our container and transporting it to our door?
Your help will be greatly appreciated !
Zane, totally agree with you! I am Croatian living in South Africa and thinking about visiting/relocating to Portugal. Once you live in South Africa, you definitely learn to do your best with what you got in any situation...and Africa time is different too, so Portugal should be a smooth transition he he.
Hi Samuel,
Hopefully someone will have an answer to this. I assume you're moving to Madeira or one of the Azores islands?
James - thanks for shining a light on the things in Portugal that are a little less "happy-making". I have been an immigrant in the US for over 30 years, so I know how to "make do", but still appreciate the heads-up. We are planning to re-locate to Portugal in about 2 years. My husband has been better at actual applying himself to his language studies, but I feel learning a new language will probably be my biggest challenge - doesn't come naturally to some people. On the other hand though, as older people I do see learning a new language as really good exercise for the grey matter:)
I am still wanting to know if there are agencies that help people with their re-settling needs? Hope you can help.
Hi, great site, thank you for that! I am looking to move to Portugal with my wife (I'm American, she's German) and we're going there to work in an International School. Thing is, it's in Albufeira. I don't want to live near there, maybe up to 30min. away? I notice that most of the places that I am able to search for long term rental housing are always about short-term vacationers. Any suggestions where I can find real estate further out of the city in some of the neighboring cities? Perhaps a webpage or newspaper that would show locals trying to rent a home? Thanks again for your help!
Yes, do a lot of research but the best research you can do is by living here.
Living in a country is very different from being on holiday so don't assume that somewhere you have spent time on holiday is somewhere you want to live.
Come here in winter, rent a house away from tourist areas, and rent a car. Both cars and property are cheap to rent in the winter but very expensive in the tourist season.
If you are thinking about the Algarve I would look east of Faro and anywhere (almost) up to the Spanish border. Here you will find a less touristy and more laid back Portugal.
Well done
Hi Russ,
Take a look at this article. I think it should point you in the right direction: https://www.portugalist.com/algarve-long-term-rentals/
Hi Agatha,
These agencies definitely still exist, but as I haven't used one personally I can't recommend one.
As for the language, I would recommend starting before you get to Portugal. You might as well hit the ground running rather than starting from scratch when you get here.
Thankfully, you can learn Portuguese from anywhere now thanks to the internet: https://www.portugalist.com/learn-portuguese-online/
Very useful stuff - thank you. I am contemplating semi-retirement in rural South West Alentejo with my horses, dogs, cats and geese. Any advice on single, middle aged women living on an edge of village environment?
Thank you for the truthful article on immigrating to a foreign country - a country where you're not fluent in the language, you need to make a living, and perhaps raise a kid, too. It's a journey not entirely filled with sunny beaches, and surfing and seafood and wine, like some bloggers portray. I moved to a Latin American country 20 years ago and started a business there. Same issues daily hassles and little inconveniences and frustrations you mention. It can be done successfully with perseverance. And if you really want it. Before you know it you are years into your business, and still dealing with the frustrating and confounding little daily hassles. But you are there and you are living it and tourists are telling you that you're living their dream. Hah.
Of everything, in the end it was integrating that was the biggest challenge, because of the language barrier.
Did you leave out "Lisbon dog shit"? That's the only thing I hate here.
You're right! It deserves a mention.
Hi Mary,
Thanks for commenting.
Yes, I think integration is the hardest part. If you can make friends, you can learn to deal with things like bureaucracy, expensive utilities, and everything else. If you don't have that sense of community, it's much harder to deal with everything else.
Hi Cruella,
Obviously, being single and in a village environment is going to be challenging anywhere but, with the exception of the language and some cultural differences, I don't think Portugal is going to be that much more challenging than anywhere else. It's a safe country and very welcoming of expats.
English is probably not going to be as widely spoken as it is in the Algarve or Lisbon, so you'll really need to make an effort there. The other challenge will be finding ways to integrate. In the cities and the Algarve, there are usually plenty of meetups and social groups but you may struggle to find them in a village.
My friend who is Portuguese and lives in Cascais Lisbon.
For someone like myself age 67 where would you recommend I live that is affordable for me. I have no pension only cash Euro 750,000 and this has to last me for the rest of my life, assuming I will live another 15 years. Should I buy or rent a property, do the have any affordable one bedroom apartments ? Thank you
My friend who is Portuguese and lives in Cascais Lisbon.
For someone like myself age 67 where would you recommend I live that is affordable for me. I have no pension only cash Euro 750,000 and this has to last me for the rest of my life, assuming I will live another 15 years. Should I buy or rent a property, do the have any affordable one bedroom apartments ? Thank you
Thank you so much for this info. I've been thinking about somewhere warm to move to from the French alps. My Brazilian friends are encouraging me to consider Lisbon.
Interestingly many of your pros & cons mirror my experience of moving to France from the UK.
A big pro we do have in France is superb health care, but only available once you've negotiated the bureaucracy involved in accessing it. What is health care like in Portugal?
Hey Nennie,
You're very welcome.
I think France is particularly good for healthcare, if I remember correctly. Portugal is good, but not at the top of the charts (I wrote about it recently here: https://www.portugalist.com/living-in-portugal/ ).
While Portugal may not have as a good healthcare as France, there are other benefits over France like a cheaper cost of living, lower taxes, English being more widely spoken, etc.
Hi Dymphna,
I'm definitely not qualified to answer any financial questions, and so I would really recommend speaking to someone who is as this is a very big decision to make.
There are lots of places in Portugal that you could retire in, but they all have their pros and cons. Cascais, for example, is very nice and has a large community of other retirees but it's also very expensive. There are more affordable locations near Lisbon and by the coast, Costa da Caparica, for example, but you don't have the same community and public transport links aren't as good. For beach locations, there are also plenty of other locations outside of Lisbon like the Algarve and Silver Coast that are worth considering.
Ultimately, it's both a personal choice and a financial choice. Hopefully, the information on Portugalist will give you some inspiration for the personal side of that choice but, for the financial questions, I really recommend speaking to a professional in this field.
Like most countries Northern Portugal is Rainier and averages about 5 degrees cooler in temperature. We chose to buy a home in the western Algarve area of Lagos. Almost everyone speaks English, the locals are very friendly and helpful, the real estate market is still a lot less expensive than the U.S. You can still purchase a 3 bedroom home 5 minutes from the beautiful beaches for about 200k. Freshest fish and heritage style vegetables, plus they are masters at bread making. Healthcare is about #14 in the world compared to the U S. at about 30+. Just do not whine and complain that "it is not like the U.S." no way to live your life.
Mr Brennan,
The very first thing you do is NOT PART WIH YOUR MONEY! No matter who says what, do not part with your money.
People don't clean up after their dogs?! I am looking at retiring near Lisbon, and would very much like to own a dog, as I've always had dogs and would like to continue. I would like to rent a very small studio or 1 bedroom apartment in a nice, somewhat quiet community... and recommendations???
How can i rich in Portugal ,
I like to go and stay in Portugal foreber in life.
I really love to leave in Portugal.
Some people don't, unfortunately.
For rentals take a look at this article: https://www.portugalist.com/lisbon-long-term-rentals/
Love your reply! Best wishes to you
I just had a dutch carpenter come to see me looking for a job. He said as he was 50 now, he wanted a more to take it more easy now and have a more relaxed kind of life! He has 2 kids ,8 and 12 years old and a wife. As his kids don't speak Portuguese he was thinking of putting them on the international school, and perhaps his wife could find a job in real estate!
What a dream!
Reality:- I had to inform him that he would have to work twice as hard and to earn a minimum of 2000€ a month to just survive! Sorry to burst your bubble! Kids international school? Forget it! 1000€ a month per kid and to tell you the truth, standard in Portuguese schools is higher! Cars,( you have to have one here), petrol, rent ,very expensive! If you don't speak the language, you wont be able to earn enough to run a family! Only singles have a chance!
Rent a place:- 2 bedroom simple app. Minimum of 650€ per month! Plus costs! ( also very hard to find long term rentals at this price)
Buy a old driveable car,- min. 2000€!
Jobs for foreigners @ 850€ p month! Do the maths!
Unless you can go into real estate, which a hell of a lot of expats try and fail at! You better have a plan of self employment or bring a million!
I've seen hundreds, if not thousands come and go, leaving broke and completely disillusioned over the years!
I've been living here for over 30 years, am self employed, never have to advertise, are fully booked 3 months ahead and have no rent to pay as I own my house! And still I have times I'm struggling!
Be warned yes, Portugal is the best place to live in Europe, but there is a high price to pay for this privilege!
Good luck, hope to meet you soon!
Snicker!
Being born and educated in Portugal I agree 100 % with what you said. In addition I would like to comment that the mass tourism that we face now is destroying several aspects of the Portuguese traditional life. The restaurants in Lisbon downtown have become tourist traps with bad food and high prices. The Portuguese handycrafts are a joke compared with other countries and reflect a lack of culture and imagination which can be found also in the arts and cuisine. The country is corrupt, incompetent, and the constant changing of laws drive you crazy. A. Marques
Hello Portugalist. You seem to have hit all the downsides right on their heads. Well done.
I've been living here for almost 7 years and have run into ALL the difficulties you described.
I think one thing people have to keep in mind is that moving to Portugal (or Italy) requires a huge amount of patience.
Yes, definitely! You can't move to a new country and expect it to work like the one you moved from.
What about the women?
DISCUSS!
Hi,
I don't mean to be contrary but I have to say I disagree with you about Portuguese being a difficult language, or it being any harder than other Romance languages. I would say Portuguese is the easiest Romance language for an English-speaker to acquire; the hardest is Romanian.
I can hear all you monolinguals crying out that Spanish is easier but, sorry folks, it's not. I speak both languages fluently, am a native English speaker and can assure you one and all that the entirely un-English-like syntax of Español combined with the Castilian penchant for reflexive-passive phrases and redundant pronouns conspire to make Spanish a far harder language to master than its Lusitanian neighbour.
For some reason, all Portuguese speakers suffer from this misconception.
Hi Fraser,
That's really interesting! I'm curious as to how you ended up learning both Spanish and Portuguese? Which came first? Also, did you learn Romanian as well?
On a side note, I've found Romanians to be very good at picking up other languages including Portuguese. Many also speak Spanish fluently, and this is apparently because they get a lot of Spanish TV there.
Wow'! Thanks for the dose of reality. You don’t get much of this on the internet. The growing problems of industrial strength tourism seems like a global disease rather than economic development. May I ask what part of the country you live in?
Not the image I would portray of the Portuguese. Uncivilised. uneducated primitives who know little about honesty and integrity but are experts at confidence trickery. Bureaucracy is an uncontrolled madhouse. Justice is non-existent and a quick buck is the order of the day...especially if its a few thousand bucks. Concrete houses are bound to have toxic black algae...our health centre has it...which is harmful to Children, the Elderly and those with breathing difficulties. Good health care is an absolute myth. Fourteen months wait for a diabetes regular check-up. Poor quality medical advice is the norm, because education and training is abysmal. Professionals are anything but professionals, and again, poorly educated.
Twelve years of reality not fuzzy impression.
I would love to talk to you
Very interesting and true comments.
We live in Madeira and it’s the same there too. My husband was born in Madeira so I’m lazy and let him do all the talking for official things etc. You can learn if you mix a lot with Portuguese and use what you learn otherwise it is difficult. Our son didn’t learn Portuguese as we lived in England. He married a Romanian and now speaks it perfectly but he uses it with their friends, family and congregation. Yes it is a Latin language so it then helps him understand a little Portuguese, as my husband can understand a few words of Romanian.
Weather much better all year round in Madeira than mainland Portugal.
However it costs more to travel back and forth here and the airport can sometimes have problems with landing due to the weather, wind!
Not a comment but a question, if moving to Portugal, do you have to go back to the country you came from every six months?
Hi Jody,
No, not unusually. It depends on your situation, but if you've moved to Portugal that implies you have permission to stay there (either via a visa or maybe because you come from another EU country).
You can technically stay up to six months without officially "moving there."
This is true but i guess i hadnt thought of it.
Hi James,
Thank you for the very detailed article.
I am moving with my wife and 1-year-old son to Portugal at the end of the year for good. We do have a house by the beach in Lagos.
We joined the Golden Visa program and we decided to move to Portugal for a better healthcare system and free education.
We don't speak Portuguese (English and Arabic).
What advice can you give us and what can we expect?
Is it safe, are schools and healthcare free, will I find a job easily (telecommunication graduate)?
Thank you
Yes, Portugal is quite safe (see: https://www.portugalist.com/safety-portugal-guide/ ). Healthcare is also free (or mostly free) and schools are free as well.
I don't know much about that specific job industry, so I would advise you to continue looking into this. Obviously you've already committed to moving to Portugal, but it would be a good idea to get an idea of what job opportunities are available to you before getting here.
Hello David, I have been here for two years and everything you have pointed out is correct. I have learnt to adapt and keep positive and remember the traffic and pollution in the UK!
I wish the women would be more assertive, as it is still a male dominated society here, in the centre of Portugal, something I fought against in the 70s and 80s in the UK.
Thank you for this post.
Rowena
Move!!!!
You forgot to mention in your bit about cold houses....MOLD!
I regularly do mold checks...found it in my shoes, on coats, furniture, walls!!
That's true! I'll need to give the article an update.
It is something you need to keep on top of, otherwise it spreads. I've only ever really had it on the walls, thankfully, usually in the bathroom or on a damp wall.
It's definitely not a problem that's limited to Portugal. I've experienced it in France and Spain as well.
Hi Ali, luso person here, portugal is a safe country but you have to take certain things into account.
One of the things you need is to be respectful, just as long as you are respectful people will probably be respectfull to you.
Another is dont try to speak spanish with us.
Its best if you try to speak to us with either “broken Portuguese” or with English.
in fact, despite many times we speak with someone foreign to Portugal in English as soon we recognize they arent portuguese, it will give you a reputation boost if you try to speak with us in our mother language even if you are not good at it.
Trying to speak a native language of a country that is foreign to you while there is a sign of respect. So you can try to use any of those two and everything will be alright.
Well, that correction was not grammatical. It was a spelling error.
Or the country could evolve quickly and catch up with the rest of Western Europe which it has fallen 100 years behind? I’ve been here three years and although there is much that I enjoy about living here, the insular and low insight mentality is the hardest to handle along with the striking mediocrity. Slow doesn’t necessarily have to mean bad, but it does here in quality and pride of input. But I do believe that with more skilled and globally experienced people moving here, we will see a vast improvement in the coming decades and with the local propensity for languages, there might develop a broadened economy and higher standards of practice and openness.
Hi James
This information here is really spot on! I’ve lived in Porto for three years (and around the world my whole adult life) and will never assimilate to the level of service or pride of work I’ve experienced here. The insular and mediocrity mentality directly affects the countries economic potential and I have become quite impatient with any of my local acquaintances And friends talking about their low wages. In addition, the incessant defending of local culture... which I don’t find particularly interesting or exceptional (cuisine and the arts)... is what holds back progress. That said, Porto centre is the perfect scale city for me at this time in my life with good weather, great beauty and a vibrance that feels larger than its size. People are friendly on the surface (more so than Berlin, less so than Bali) but hard to know even with their exceptional language skills. There is a strange obsession with worrying about what other might think which is unusual in my experience for any countries major cities. Like anywhere, there is a lot to adjust to and some stuff you’re simply not prepared to accept which might make foreigners integration dependent on the culture they move to. It feels like Portugal is in its early stages of global interest and how it reacts to this will determine how well everyone does from this new interest. Personally, I find it all rather exciting.
So true, but there are also some positive sides as well. Most people do not want to speak about it though being afraid of something...
Sweat dreemz!
Healthcare in Portugal is a joke, especially the dentists. Stay away from Portuguese dentists.
Olá Miguel,
I’ve been thinking of moving to Porto. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, but my parents are Brazilian so I do speak Portuguese and have lived in Brazil, Salvador and Rio, and have lived in Costa Rica too. I work here in Los Angeles as a chiropractor (quiropraxista), and I’m curious as to how much are they utilized in Portugal? I was almost going to Espino in July with the USA Beach Volleyball team as there doctor until the coronavirus canceled everything.
Hi,
So I’ve been thinking of moving to Porto, and obviously first going to see the country but primarily the different areas to possibly live, knowing that there’s essential places near by, like markets, bakery, hospitals, and I’m looking for possible clinics there as well were I can possibly work in my profession until stabilizing myself business wise until I decide to either continue or open my own clinic. Any tips you can offer me?
Obrigado
James,
I’ve spoken at home since I was born, Portuguese with my brazilian parents, Spanish with baby sitters from Mexico, and English being born and raised in Los Angeles, California, speaking Spanish with different Spanish speakers from anywhere from Spain too Argentina, Chile, and any other Spanish speaking country in between, and I have not had a problem having to deal with other languages either of Latin origin, or languages that or completely the opposite of Latin origin, which could be a struggle but those from the non-Latin speaking countries do appreciate the fact that you are trying at least to communicate.
Olá A Marquês,
So can you give me any feedback that you may have, or retrieve for someone wanting to work in Porto as a quiropraxista!?
Obrigado
Hi Jon,
What can you tell me about living there and working as a chiropractor (quiropraxista) in say, Porto!? I know from experience having lived in Brazil that it’s best to work for someone who already has an established clinic and hope to gradually make a name for ones self and either continue as is or hope for opening your own clinic!?
Obrigado
Hi Samuel,
I’ve never lived nor been to Portugal, but from my experience having lived in Brazil, I had my things sent by cargo plane which obviously arrived a lot sooner than if I had shipped it to Brazil, and was easier, not easy, but easier compared to a friend of mine who’s Brazilian and moved to Brazil with his wife and had shipped all his belongings and had 3-4 months of headaches to get all his belongings and deal with the customs of a port which can be more corrupt than dealing with one at the Cargo portion of the airport, but not as corrupt. Will it cost more, not ridiculously expensive but cheaper than dealing with a possible delay in your belongings and finding yourself having to buy replacements until yours do arrive and arrive at your place you’ll be living at.
Olá Philip,
Prazer! I was born and raised in Los Angeles California, and my parents are from Salvador Bahia where I’ve lived before as a child for two years, and in Rio, also two years, and and I know how it is as for being so accustomed to certain things and luxuries of how things work in the US verses in Brazil, especially in Salvador where life is slower than in Rio and even more than in São Paulo or Curitiba where my father lives, but that’s a choice one makes without being forced into that choice, so for one to make that move and complain when trying to compare Portugal or Brazil with where one came from is not going to help one at all. Like James said, you weigh the pros versus the cons, and then you except the cons, cause anywhere in the world there’s going to be pros and cons, including in the US, or else anyone who’s moved to Portugal, or planning to wouldn’t be making, nor had made there moves!
As for a Facebook or even a website for some to go into too ask questions, chat with some who lives in Portugal, being from there, and having moved there from another country with different cultures and languages will definitely help one, and believe me, myself having lived in Brazil speaking the language, and living in Costa Rica, speaking the language, I still had to rely on locals or expats to give me certain advices and guidance once and awhile.
Hi Blake,
I live in Los Angeles and I know what you mean in regards to gasoline here in comparison with the other states, it ridiculous. As for bureaucracy, I lived in Brazil and Costa Rica and there’s also bureaucracy there too, and Los Angeles like you said has its own form of bureaucracy as well, definitely not to the extent of Brazil, nor what I’ve read here in reference to Portugal, but I may be wrong but I still think it all comes to weighing the pros and cons, like living here in Los Angeles which definitely has its share of both!!
The reason most people move to Portugal is the conservative old european way of life as opposed to the progressist who are obcessed with making everything "Better", I have lived 15 years in major cities around the world and got tired of the always more mentality. To live I need a roof, water and food. The rest is not necessary.
Anglos are obcessed with mold, why is that ?
Why would you want to do that in another country? The reason Portugal is nice is because it is not modern and progressist.
You move there with an Anglo mentality, why?
Adopt local culture and if you don't like it move out.
There is no such a thing, go study in a field that you ike and get ready to work hard. Life without working doesn't exist.
Why don't you stay away from Portugal all together?
Hi Nelson,
All I can tell you is about the Algarve where I am based!
The chiropractors I know in this area are all fully booked! It is hard getting an appointment! Of course, here in the south the main client base will be the foreigners who live here plus the owners of holiday villas/apartments. These have the money to spend!
The chiropractor I know charges 25€ per session of 30 minutes!
I hope this is helpful to you.
Good luck for the future.
Jon
This is true. Chiropractors are always popular in the Algarve.
Are you a dentist by chance and naturally want to protect your scheme? I live in Kazakhstan now and fix my teeth in the Czech Republic, which has top quality dentists. Portugal is a nice country, but Portuguese dentists are a disaster and very selfish (crooked, low quality, disrespectful to customer time and absolutely unreliable). I did not mean to insult the entire country. Portugal is a nice country.
Hello you nasty minded quarter wit
I am not English. Your 'Anglo Mentality' misconception is an excellent reflection on your national wonderful standard of education and pathological determination never to be wrong. Alexandre Soares de Santos, the second wealthiest businessman in grubby-minded Portugal was absolutely accurate.. He employed tens of thousands of your-fellows so he might be the odd man out in understanding how socio malperforming, behaviourally disordered thick-wits perform in reality. Keep your silly erroneous performance hidden. You look and sound like a pratt...never wrong and too stupid to understand just how stupid you are.
Adopt local culture? I don't want to be a lying, poorly educated, misfit with a sociopathic disorder. I care very much for decent honest people. I don't care for fakes and morons.
Hello you nasty minded quarter wit
I am not English. Your 'Anglo Mentality' misconception is an excellent reflection on your national wonderful standard of education and pathological determination never to be wrong. Alexandre Soares de Santos, the second wealthiest businessman in grubby-minded Portugal was absolutely accurate.. He employed tens of thousands of your-fellows so he might be the odd man out in understanding how socio malperforming, behaviourally disordered thick-wits perform in reality. Keep your silly erroneous performance hidden. You look and sound like a pratt...never wrong and too stupid to understand just how stupid you are.
Adopt local culture? I don't want to be a lying, poorly educated, misfit with a sociopathic disorder. I care very much for decent honest people. I don't care for fakes and morons.
We moved here two years ago, having lived in South Africa, Cape Town for nearly 30 years. Born in the UK and traveled a lot it is a pleasure to walk the streets and feel totally safe, so relaxed, take life one day at a time, chat a little, drink a coffee, I love the attitude of the locals, what is the rush. Portugal has taught me to look at the beauty of the place, spend time with friends, we've made loads of great friends, we drink a little too much wine, long warm sunny Algarvian days just sitting in the square. After 40 years of always wanting more, doing things better, faster, saving money, board meetings, flights etc., what for, its about quality of life and Portugal offers that. I agree there are all the downsides you mention but thats a lot less then most countries I visited and I am glad I live here.
Thanks for sharing, Sue!
Dog Shit everywhere it’s disgusting.. pigeons are also a huge problem here. Lisbon is beautiful but these two things should be addressed.
I’ve been in Lisbon for 10 years and I have to agree with most of what has been said. It’s not been easy and I’m finally deciding it’s time to move on to a place where people are a bit more positive ( the negativity of the people drives me nuts) .
Great observations, I’m a tour guide in Iberia and Morocco, I fell in love with Lisbon many years ago so decided to leave London for Lisbon, bought property etc. I’ve tried so hard to settle to accept and to integrate but after 10 years and after a recent visit to southern Italy I decided to start planning a move. Main reasons are the negative attitude of the Portuguese in general, that can’t do attitude is hard to deal with and the thought of spending the rest of my years here has made me wake up and plan my new life.
Probably the same as in Brazil. But don't come now because we are infected with the virus up to our heads. mainly in Porto. You have may be a better chance in the town of Braga near Porto, and where about thirty five thousands Brazilians live.
Well here too in Los Angeles, but looking more towards next year or year after.
Thank you
Thanks for this wonderful and honest review.
I am thinking about relocating from SA, and at this point, I have been applying for jobs at international companies, based in Portugal.
Do you have any advice that you would like to share.
Hi Sue, I am originally from Amsterdam and have been living in Cape Town for the last 20 years. We are looking at moving to Portugal as a family in the near future. I would love to get in touch with you! pls, can you email me on san.raad@gmail.com? Thanks! San
Hi Sue, I am originally from Amsterdam and have been living in Cape Town for the last 20 years. We are looking at moving to Portugal as a family in the near future. I would love to get in touch with you! pls, can you email me on san.raad@gmail.com? Thanks! San
Wow Sue, I love your comment! We are considering moving to Portugal from South Africa, a family of four, two sons aged 13 and 11. Would you have any advice for me? My husband is a photographer and would ideally set up his own business. Any advice? Sorry a big ask, I know!
Regards
Kirsten
Hi Lionel, taking the wax off the new car shine is the way I would characterize your post. And, much thanks for sharing that perspective, warts and all.
As you have been there for 12 years, I would like to establish a relationship to discuss how to make the most of making things work in a bottom rung first world/high level third world country such as Portugal. I am American and lived in Germany and UK for 7 years total. My wife is Russian.
I will retire on pensions - she will continue to work remotely. Integration is not our chief concern as we are independent types and self-reliant. We also go along to get along. Not looking to change things other than as it pertains to our own standards of lifestyle and enjoying being happy for each day as it unfolds. Your comments about healthcare, particularly diabetic care, are concerning.
I have many questions and will appreciate your unvarnished input to help us make the best decisions on how to prepare for living in Madeira/Portugal and how you have found ways to turn lemons to lemonade.
ALL: Please feel free to offer up a reply string on this post.
Hello!! I am Richie and planning to visit Madeira in 2020 hoping to research and see if it can become our chosen expat retirement home. I have read this entire thread. Having lived in 3 countries and visited about 45 of them, plus married to a Russian, I have experienced a thing or two.
Our goal - live a simpler life - and for us - boring works just fine. I will be on pension and wife will work so our income/savings should be fine.
My biggest questions are about the Madeira weather - since most homes do not have heating - what are best ways to cope with the winter/nights. Is a home with central heating a "must have"?? Here in the USA, we use a fireplace and propane gas heating plus electric blankets and its cozy enough despite colder and humid night temps.
Next - health care. Can anyone please recommend a preferred private health carrier for those over 55 (and 65) that will provide care for diabetic patients? My BS is well managed with meds but I am still at risk.
Lastly, integrating is not our type priority - we all have learned that having even a handful of friends in life is a great accomplishment - but we are friendly and outgoing and an interesting professional couple. If integrating is proving difficult for many - what icebreaking tips might be advised to fit into the community? Charitable service? Recommended networking??
Also, your input on the PROS/CONS of life on Madeira and what areas are both affordable and offer the best value in terms of a quality life. We see interesting things both north and south.
Looking forward to our future friendship!!
Richie and Elena
I am with you on everything you say......
i live in the centre of Portugal for a long time now and it is totally controlled by the mafia, cannot get anything done, start to try and make money and they shut you down, i have just woken up these last few weeks i thought it was me but its not....
Hi Maria,
i liked the lighten my soul, i have been here a long time and agree with all what your saying, where to go next and get out of this hell hole....
The barking dogs will drive you mad
Good morning Don R S
Holding a discussion, or better, with someone with social awareness and intelligent application would indeed be a most welcome change. However, I have reservations about exposing my wife and I to the dangers of declaring my contact and location, in any public place.
When we applied for a resident permit, we found no help on the internet, nor any of the supposed local governmental help centres.
Having devoted three hours minimum, on three separate occasions, to achieve nothing, plagued by a crowd of loud critics and vociferous complainants, broken dangerous seating, broken refreshment machines and bureaucratic neglect, I wrote a letter to the irresponsible manager, with a copy to questionably motivated Costa the Prime Monster
I have been subsequently accused of throwing chairs and assaulting the four liars who intimidated my wife and I when we asked for non racial assistance, and asked why we were being denied our lawful rights. The poisonous attitude of self righteousness was of singular importance to these despicable conspirators, who made a fabricated complaint to the police.
Human Rights, freedom of speech and personal expression, are being denied with Court support or ignorance, in an increasing manner.
The Law is being openly abused to satisfy the Pathological needs of inadequate bureaucrats who seem to have a tested formula to pervert by lying , cheating and conspiracy. Out of something like 2000 complaints made by ordinary folk, against bureaucrats the year before last, less than a quarter were investigated.
I don't believe that 'investigation' is a competent ability of those charged with fairness. Pursuit is the reality of their involvement. Bureaucrats win...fair minded people lose. That is typically how justice works in this land of 'Brain Transplant Donors'.
Behavioural and personality disorders are of alarming proportion. Both are diagnosed symptoms of mental illness. It is unrecognised and untreated.
Crude pathological denial of any fault or error is of epidemic proportion. This is a sick nation being wrecked by sick people with sick administration and sick sociopathic practices.
We have exhausted over seven years attempting to recover almost 100,000€ stolen by the Tax authorities contrary to EU Protocol. Undoubtedly jealous racist conspiracy by our accountant and his good friend, a senior tax official.
I have the papers ready to send to the Court of Human Rights, when their conditional target date arrives.
Three very wealthy friends have withdrawn their interest in investing in Portugal.
I recommend any similarly motivated person to look elsewhere. We have lived on Crete, and foolishly returned to our building project in Portugal. We have lived in France, to where we will speedily return as soon as the thieving, corrupt Portuguese administration pay our claim of almost 130,000€ which includes interest and compensation...this sick regime will charge you interest but will never compensate you for maladministration losses. The Court in Strasbourg have alternative ideas of right and wrong.
Justice, Reason, Fairness? Not a snowballs chance in Portugal!
Theft, Corruption, Intellectual Bankruptcy? Every day occurrences in Portugal!
Children are taught corruption, deception, lying and cheating. Teachers have to be reappointed annually for four years before then can apply for a permanent post. Headteachers exploit this vulnerability to coerce unrealistic assessments of student achievement. Don't cheat and lie according to Headteacher requirement to fraudulently impress...then you don't have a job at the end of the year. Children know all about this trickery, teachers despise the practice.
That is a basic element of an education system that sets the foundation for the future of Portugal., and its people.
I was employed in the UK to investigate, assess and recommend how Courts might prescribe treatment for convicted criminals. I know much about liars, cheats, connivers, thieves sociopathic affliction and Mental Disorder.
I don't lie, I assess and report.
Farewell !
Hello,
My boyfriend and I are thinking about moving to Portugal, particularly one of the small rural villages bc his family already has a house there. And I'm worried bc I have epilepsy and I've read many articles that getting a specialist is very difficult. Can someone verify that for me?
Hi ... we just got our passports and thinking of moving after this pandemic is at ease. I have 2 kids and we are currently in Dubai. How about schools and jobs? Thank you.
Leah
Hi Leah,
In terms of schools, there are both Portuguese and international schools and, like everywhere else, they vary in quality. You'll have more options if you're in Lisbon or the Algarve but you'll probably need to look at jobs first in order to know where you'll be.
As for jobs, generally speaking the job market isn't great. Wages are low by European standards and there aren't a huge number of jobs to begin with. This is a generalisation of course, and I'm sure there are some industries that pay well, but it's something you need to be aware of. People come for the lifestyle more than the earning opportunities, which is probably a very different lifestyle to Dubai.
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Hi Leah,
In terms of schools, there are both Portuguese and international schools and, like everywhere else, they vary in quality. You'll have more options if you're in Lisbon or the Algarve but you'll probably need to look at jobs first in order to know where you'll be.
As for jobs, generally speaking the job market isn't great. Wages are low by European standards and there aren't a huge number of jobs to begin with. This is a generalisation of course, and I'm sure there are some industries that pay well, but it's something you need to be aware of. People come for the lifestyle more than the earning opportunities, which is probably a very different lifestyle to Dubai.
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It's cos in Ireland (and I presume the UK too) there is a black mold species that can cause severe toxicity and is very hard to get rid of. It makes you very sick unfortunately... the damage can last for years 🙁
It's cos in Ireland (and I presume the UK too) there is a black mold species that can cause severe toxicity and is very hard to get rid of. It makes you very sick unfortunately... the damage can last for years 🙁
Hi. My wife Donna, and I live in Mississauga and are contemplating our retirement. We are planning to visit Portugal for a month. What drew my attention to your story is your desire to be in a more english speaking community. That is our desire as well. I am willing to learn Portuguese, but to be fair, I am not a quick learner. How has your experience changed in the year that you have been there? Is the language still an issue? Thanks,
Gerry
begging to everyone...nothing personel... and no harm want to apply to any one by any means...
with these words....
please do not...(evolve quickly)...i have lived and living in ...(evolve quickly) places....
again.... not trying to say portuqal is a third world country...and also ...not really an expert of the country...just visited once a year for two week of vacation last 10-13 years ...
sometimes ..(evolve quickly) thinking , ruining our civilized minds:))
Sarah I would do more research about health insurance online before you go to Portugal especially if your boyfriend has a medical condition.
Hi we have lived in Madeira for just over a year now..be careful where you buy or rent in Madeira. The higher up in altitude the colder it gets and during the winter months the houses are very cold and huge amounts have damp problems, like serious damp issues...we have lived in east calheta and west machico and are now in funchal..which we have found to be warmer during the winter and not damp at all, but it does decide on the style of home you live in..we previously lived in algarve for 6 months, but didn't like, but everyone has their own preferences...
I think it's fair to say that Madeira is an agricultural land and so the local people are from farming backgrounds, which makes them simple folk who are friendly...I agree with all of what is written in this piece about Portugal...we have been learning portugese for 18 months ..its an extremely difficult language, and every time you try to practise using what you've learned the people know immediately that you are English and just insist on speaking English to you...they are desperate to practise English, particularly along the south coast, because the island heavily relies on tourism...
Every 100 mtr up the temp drops a degree (as a general example) so always know how high each home that you plan to settle in is, remembering that after about 450/500 you will need some heating..remember you will definitely climatise here..
On the positive side, it's a delight to live here as there is hardly any crime , the climate is a dream and lots of free things to pass the time of day...great walks and places to explore...I love it here and feel privileged to be here..our two cocker spaniels enjoy it very much. They came with us from UK and cause a stir wherever we go...
Calheta probably has the most Brits outside of funchal, but Santa Cruz and gaula can be very reasonable to buy or rent, although the west is favoured above the east in terms of weather. Having lived on both sides I really like both. Machico is flat has two great supermarkets and a yellow sandy beach, but we found it damp and cold in winter (and we was in a new build, still had mould forming on shoes and clothes in closet) everything is about adapting and accepting a brand new lifestyle...but one thing is for sure, once you find your own peace of heaven, you will not be moved!
Hi leah, I wouldn't hesitate about bringing kids here, it's a dream...so safe and children all grow up slowly and in their proper time..its the happiest I've seen children when together with friends or parents...its so family based and child have great respect for the family.
I have only lived in Portugal since November 2019, and using the healthcare system has probably been one of our biggest hurdles, only due to the language barrier. We are lucky and get reciprocal rights. But we live south of Aveiro, and literally no administrator or receptionist speaks any English around here. We had to ask our Portuguese teacher to give us the vocabulary just to set up a doctor appointment! I am too scared to go to the doctor! It is probably much easier in the big cities or Algarve. I personally think it is a total myth that English is widely spoken in Portugal. In this area, more French is spoken, which is lucky because my husband is fluent. We have been saved twice from total destruction by local bureaucrats purely because of kindly, elderly Gentlemen who happened to have lived in France and were able to come to our rescue when our poor Portuguese and Google translate were not helping!
That Portugal is 'in its early stage of global interest' is an interesting feeling to experience in a country that was one of the first to explore, conquer and settle less developed countries on the other side of the world, in the early modern period of global history. Perhaps you sense that the clocks there are gradually turning back into astrolabes?
Agree with Niamh about reason for mould obsession among inhabitants of the British Isles, and am convinced he's right about the Emerald Isle as well. Airborne mould spores are a serious health hazard for various reasons that even casual research will rapidly confirm.
Given your past engagement with another domestic justice system, you will be aware that findings of the ECHR can be at quite a high level of generality; that ei qui affirmat, non ei qui negat incumbit probatio; that in EU HR law each state party to the HR Convention is allowed a significant degree of allowance for
local conditions; and that in order to obtain an award of financial recompense you may need first to pursue proceedings within a system in which you have manifestly lost confidence, and to exhaust your appellate rights there. If your Portuguese experiences have been as wholly negative as you assert, I wish you well in your campaign. But you may need sound advice and representation on the legal questions and also to have your opinions on the national psyche validated or contradicted by a highly qualified social psychologist. Or else to have the good judgement to cut your losses and restart in a society you find more congenial.
Spelling pedants, not grammar police. Never mind. No doubt you're good at something else.
Hi James,
Thank you! Lot's of good info here. My partner and I are looking to move to Portugal from NY. I spent my summers in Aveiro (parents & grandparents are Portuguese). I'm torn on where to live as I would like a bit of property and a house to raise children and dogs in. We narrowed it down to Magoito, outskirts of Estremoz or Tavira. Any insight would be hugely grateful. Nadia is a Yoga Teacher and I an entrepreneur. The long term plan is to form a business around hospitality and Yoga. Short term would be to enjoy during the year as we continue living in the hustle and bustle of the states for another year or so.
Thanks again,
Thanks - I think I am convinced to not move to Portugal but to partake in extended vacations. My company is bringing new jobs to the area and want me to move there. Not so sure I can handle it and I do not speak Portuguese. I think it will be shorter lived time in Portugal. Glad to know the beauty has an ugly side as well.
Hi Saj,
Perhaps start with extended vacations or even see if you can work remotely here and then decide if it's for you?
Some people get here and find that it's not for them so it's good you're seeing that might be the case for you in advance. Lots of people love it, though, so do come and try it out.
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Hi
We are planning to live in Cascais from June 2021.
My daughter is going to start A levels at that time.
At the moment she goes to a private school in Brighton
There is any equivalent to A levels In Portugal?
By the way,she is fluent in Portuguese from Brazil.
It makes a big difference as to which countries you compare Portugal to. For example, Portugal would beat any African country hands down.
Hi Juliana,
There are several private schools in Portugal that teach the British A Levels rather than the Portuguese curriculum. If she's already going to a private school in the UK, maybe it's simplest for her to go to a private school in Portugal?
Fluency in Portuguese will be a big help to her in many ways, especially integrating into Portuguese life here.
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Absolutely.
For many reasons, I can't compare it to every country in the world. I think it makes sense to draw comparisons between other European countries because people are often looking at living in Portugal VS Spain, for example. I also compare it to the other English-speaking and Northern European countries that I know well enough as this is where many Portugalist readers come from.
I do hope to write some articles where I interview people from other parts of the world (e.g. South Africa) to get their insights into the differences between life here and their home country.
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Hello James,
Thanks so much for administering this great blog. I have learned so much from the differant view points from the readers. We plan to visit for a few months next summer, hopefully the pandemic will be under control by then. We were hoping Portugal could become a new summer home and possibly a new full time place of residency. We are retired 73 and 68 respectively. We live in the USA in Arizona near Mexico. It is an active retirement community, 6,000 plus homes with HOA rules, which is not uncommon in the USA. In the summer when the heat becomes extreme we travel to the East Coast to the state of New Jersey where we have a condo with again HOA rules.
My question is because of the HOA rules, we live in an envirement that is quiet/peaceful and that brings up a few problems that I have read here about noise and other things. We have nothing against dogs but their barking is not music to our ears. Dog pooh I guess we can expect but does it have to be in our neighborhood? At our age we are use to heat and air conditioning. Is this possible? Mold we don't choose to have to deal with that. Our condo was built with cinder block and cememt slabs. Can't hear anyone. Are any apt. or condos built like that?
We can deal with a lot of he other issues that have been brought up. Language and bureaucracy we can deal with them.
Any help anyone can give to a couple of old folks will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you James.
Thank you James.
Hi Bruce,
Issues like mold and barking dogs aren't an issue everywhere in Portugal, but it is something to be aware of. Most issues like mold, noise insulation, etc are common in older Portuguese houses, or houses that were cheaply built, but you can definitely find modern (slightly more expensive) properties where these things aren't an issue. It's just something to be aware of when you're house-hunting.
Air conditioning is definitely possible. You shouldn't have a problem getting it installed if the property you choose doesn't already have it. Electricity is expensive here, by European standards, but it's a price worth paying for many people. I would also think about heating as well.
I would also think about where you might want to live in Portugal. If you're looking for somewhere with a large retirement community, the Algarve, Cascais, or perhaps Madeira would all be places to look at. You'll find retired expats in every part of Portugal, but those are some of the largest hotspots.
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Hi Bruce,
Issues like mold and barking dogs aren't an issue everywhere in Portugal, but it is something to be aware of. Most issues like mold, noise insulation, etc are common in older Portuguese houses, or houses that were cheaply built, but you can definitely find modern (slightly more expensive) properties where these things aren't an issue. It's just something to be aware of when you're house-hunting.
Air conditioning is definitely possible. You shouldn't have a problem getting it installed if the property you choose doesn't already have it. Electricity is expensive here, by European standards, but it's a price worth paying for many people. I would also think about heating as well.
I would also think about where you might want to live in Portugal. If you're looking for somewhere with a large retirement community, the Algarve, Cascais, or perhaps Madeira would all be places to look at. You'll find retired expats in every part of Portugal, but those are some of the largest hotspots.
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because it actually causes health problems!
because it actually causes health problems!
This article on Portugal by James Cave was a breath of fresh air. Thorough and honest. Most companies involved in retiring overseas such as International Living list only the positive aspects of a country. Their descriptions give the impression that it's paradise, which doesn't exist anywhere in this world.
I appreciated, in particular, the difficulty with the bureaucracy. It exists in every country to some degree but appears to be more prevalent in Portugal.
This article on Portugal by James Cave was a breath of fresh air. Thorough and honest. Most companies involved in retiring overseas such as International Living list only the positive aspects of a country. Their descriptions give the impression that it's paradise, which doesn't exist anywhere in this world.
I appreciated, in particular, the difficulty with the bureaucracy. It exists in every country to some degree but appears to be more prevalent in Portugal.
Thanks Jim!
I think it's important to be realistic about these things. Every country is a mixture of pros and cons.
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Lionel,
Wow. Really? Maybe you should find another home.
where in Italy are you looking to move to that has more of a 'can do' attitude and the other qualities of life you are looking for after having lived in and visited many varied places?
I am glad I came across your article..we were thinking of retiring there and your honesty was a breath of fresh air as all we read was the wonderful aspects of living there. So thank you..we are so put out with the way the USA is turning out that we simply want to move to a safer place to retire..we are set money wise so where would you suggest? Any info is greatly appreciated
Lots of people fleeing both the USA and UK at the moment 🙂
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Animals are treated differently here. Dogs are for protection, cats are for catching mice. It's a bit different in the cities but I don't like the way animals are treated here. Lots of them abandoned. Very few charities to look after them. Sometimes lots of stray dogs wandering around.
What about all the people who get up in your face and try and sell you fake drugs?
Good point.
This seems to mainly be a Lisbon issue, though. I've had it happen to me in Porto, the Algarve, and even over in the Azores, but it's much more of a problem than a slight annoyance in Lisbon.
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Hi All,
I'm an old Irish guy looking for a civilised place to spend the winters in,and possibly retire to. Portugal appears to have much of what I am looking for. However, I need fairly fast internet speed to help provide an income.
I am looking to buy a modest apartment outside of Lisbon or Porto but near the sea. If anyone has useful information about internet quality, it would be much appreciated. I,also, don't drive,so good public transport is important to me.
Despite getting on a bit, I would like to be somewhere I can have an active,varied social life.
Any suggestions.
My Best Wishes,
Brian
Hi Brian,
Lots of people live in Portugal and work online. It's one of the most popular destinations, particularly Lisbon but increasingly also the Algarve. I would say speeds are good overall, and it usually isn't too hard to find a café that you can work from as well. Cities and large urban areas are (naturally) more likely to have fibre broadband. Unless you require really amazing upload or download speeds, you shouldn't struggle to find what you're looking for.
Public transport and a social life are probably the two bigger issues as both often require you to be close to somewhere like Lisbon or Porto, which means higher accommodation costs.
A few places I would look into are Setúbal, Costa da Caparica, Cascais, Matosinhos, and some of the towns and cities on the Silver Coast which is becoming quite popular (particularly around Caldas da Rainha and Peniche).
Start there, and let me know how you get on.
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James,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I think Portugalist is a great resource of which you should rightly be very proud.
When I firm up on plans for a visit I expect I will have a number of additional questions.
Setubal has certainly interested me with its proximity to Lisbon. The property prices there seem reasonable for my modest budget. I suppose there is a good possibility of a decent rental income there too.
I will certainly keep you in mind if it comes to needing professional services such as lawyers,accountant,etc,.
Should I move to Portugal, I would be keen to involve myself in local charitable activities as a public-spirited contribution to my new community.
I will continue my research.
Thanks again. I look forward to our next exchange of words.
Kind regards,
Brian.
what are you doing here then if that's all you think about Portugal and the Portuguese? We don't need rude pompous people in here, thank you very much and specially people who think they come over to change the country.
For your information the Portuguese have had some of the best doctors, dig into that. All you write in here is totally insulting and not true so get one of your favourite airplanes and you won't be missed.
The problem with most foreigners living in Portugal is that they're not skilled enough to understand the behaviour, not even interested in making an effort, and so they call it names like "mediocrity", "uncivilised". "uneducated", enough of that. We're not here to please you, to be changed by you, to serve you, to live like you. We're here to live our lives the simple way we want and whoever wants to join without judgment is most welcome, otherwise you're best catch the first plane and go back where you came from. Thank you.
Corruption in politics and elsewhere is the norm , and there is total inefficiency , and lack of accountability in all government services , and almost all their procedures are outdated and slow .
Hi Brian I’m not there yet in Portugal but have similar questions
Would like to be in touch
I’m presently in India on my way to the UK in a week
My email I’d is
zenax_651@yahoo.com
Looking forward to having a conversation regards Zena
Wow great to hear Sue
I would like to stay in touch
I’m from London lived in India nearly 40 years
Heading to Portugal in a month looking for a change
Regards Zena
I love you
Your honestly funny
Are you a Virgo by any chance
Anyway love the intelligence
I love you
Your honestly funny
Are you a Virgo by any chance
Anyway love the intelligence
Hi James & everyone,
What a phenomenal resource here!
We are a couple (one retired, one working remotely in tech) from the SF bay area that are planning/researching a move to
Portugal (areas of interest right now: Camp de Ourique, Faro, Coimbra).
We do not speak any language other than english.
Your 22 cons about Portugal was super helpful. To that point, house vs apt. from a noise standpoint is where we are headed as sleep is pretty important to us. Walkability to shops, produce markets is a pretty important thing for us as well.
Healthcare: we would have our private int'l plan (Alianz? Cigna? some other provider?) and as my husband has had heart surgery in the past, a good hospital w/acute cardiology services is important.
This is a lot to address, but your help (and others' comments would be great).
Thank you again for "telling like it is"!
Julie & Phil
Hi James & everyone,
What a phenomenal resource here!
We are a couple (one retired, one working remotely in tech) from the SF bay area that are planning/researching a move to
Portugal (areas of interest right now: Camp de Ourique, Faro, Coimbra).
We do not speak any language other than english.
Your 22 cons about Portugal was super helpful. To that point, house vs apt. from a noise standpoint is where we are headed as sleep is pretty important to us. Walkability to shops, produce markets is a pretty important thing for us as well.
Healthcare: we would have our private int'l plan (Alianz? Cigna? some other provider?) and as my husband has had heart surgery in the past, a good hospital w/acute cardiology services is important.
This is a lot to address, but your help (and others' comments would be great).
Thank you again for "telling like it is"!
Julie & Phil
Good list - I've only been here a month, but can agree on most things (haven't seen winter yet, smoking hasn't been an issue - though I was in Serbia last where indoor smoking is allowed and the vast majority of the adult population smokes, and bureaucracy hasn't been so bad with the help of a "tax representative" to assist with my NIF, waiting to see what registering for social security during these times will bring, but I've been told it's simpler than the NIF). I'm about to go hunt down some of the neighborhood dogs because there has been almost non-stop barking for going on three hours now from all sides of my apartment in Ovar (south of Porto). And the inner-noise is a thing... I am sensitive, and it's a nuisance, but thankfully my neighbors upstairs don't get too crazy. For others used to more insular environments in the US, though, it will be a change.
People seem to keep talking about gas prices in California... I don't think they realize it can still be nearly twice that in Portugal.
Only other thing I'd add is how self-absorbed Portuguese can be, in a rather inconsiderate way. I would actually compare it to L.A., but no fakeness here. People do not give a FUCK about others, and it shows. I've already had it out with a couple people on the street for being brazenly rude and aggressive towards me for NO reason, simply walking down the sidewalk. I have no idea how Portugal has been ranked the "third most peaceful country on the planet." It is filled with loud, self-absorbed assholes who will treat others with utter disrespect as though they live for it. That's been the biggest culture shock for me here, really, is just how shitty the people can be. It's not everyone, but....
Hi Zena,
I live in London and would welcome exchanging views on Portugal with you--have been out of Ireland for many years but am a regular visitor home.
With the current Covid 19 situation I have put back any plans to visit Portugal until winter at the earliest.
Please contact me at dbrianwhitford@btinternet.com.
Best wishes,
Brian.
Amen!
I don't get why people insist on telling someone 'just to leave' if they say anything negative about Portugal. What is up with that!??
Honest input should be appreciated, and if you have a reason to disagree feel free to share.
Just stop it with the 'get out if you have anything negative to say'.
I've lived in Évora for over a year now. For me the biggest problem is the noise from both neighbors and their dogs. They just don't seem to care and are really oblivious to any kind of discomfort they might be creating. They leave their dogs chained up all day, barking incessantly. And this is not just a few people; it's systematic. When they get together to drink in the street or on their terrace, they insist on shouting at each other even though they're less than a meter apart. And this can go on all night. I've lived in a few different neighborhoods here and it's the same everywhere. I thought that I'd get used to it but I am just getting angrier and angrier.
Hi, i also would like to follow your endeavor with zena and hear how things go..HAPPY TRAILS
LAURA
Internet speeds are good in towns and cities, but you must pay for better quality services. As to an active and varies social life. This is not going to happen, even if you speak Portuguese. The Portuguese model for socialization is family and childhood friends with whom you maintain a lifelong relationship.
Outsiders will be Superficially treated well because it is expected. They will generally not be included in the inner sphere.
The above list of issues is UNDERSTATED but accurate. Each problem listed is THE NORM, not the exception.
Animals are treated differently here, primarily because the owners see absolutely no need to take responsibility. I have a neighbor whose dogs howl and snarl at EVERY person who passes by, at ALL hours. Since they live 15 meters from a popular cafe, this means all day. The owner stands there and watches. Occasionally one will break out and attack passing dogs.
Good, caring decent pet owners do exist, but the "what can I do, thats how it is" attitude stymies change.
"Air conditioning is definitely possible. You shouldn’t have a problem getting it installed if the property you choose doesn’t already have it."
The roof of most apartments are public space. Locating a unit on a roof is frequently problematic. Walls are concrete. retrofit-Installation can be problematic.
Portable units are available and I have one. Portuguese will tell you "you don't need central heat or air conditioning. It doesn't get hot....It doesn't get cold"...this is rubbish. Three years here and I assure you, apartments can be saunas and walk in freezers.
If you want central heat or air, you will need to find an apartment with it already installed. Space heaters are ineffectual in uninsulated, concrete block buildings and cost a fortune to run.
Richie,
I had private insurance for my first year here. "The best" insurance was $500 a month and in the entire year I had it, it covered NOT ONE THING. Labs, visits and meds were all uncovered. Honestly, I have no idea what it DID cover.
If you cannot get status here, plan on buying the cheapest insurance and then just paying out of pocket for everything. Compared to the US it is cheap. Compared to the rest of the EU it is par.
EU folks have no idea what high medical costs are. My Insulin was $1200 a month retail in the us, the same pens are 79 Euros here. They are mortified to ask for 79 Euros.
Hi Jonathan,
This is good to know regarding the installation of air con. And, yes, it can definitely be the two extremes with regards to heat.
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Hi Zena,
We are a couple originally from India, currently living in US (citizens now), but exploring options to retire outside US. Portugal always rises to the top of our list because of weather, safety, cost, etc. Had heard good things about healthcare and people on other sites, but this list of cons gives me a pause. Wondering how things are going for you in your search and any impressions you have so far. Having been immigrants, we have already experienced many changes, but would like to make an informed decision. Thank you.
You're very welcome.
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You are so right about both the dogs barking and the fact that they shout when they`re close to each other. l stayed in a small town near Faro for 6 weeks and there are always dogs barking on balconies, dogs barking in the street and on one occassion l saw an owner with their small dog who she let bark non stop for over 5 minutes and didn`t even seem to notice. Even when it then tried to snap someone`s ankles she didn`t notice and was oblivious to a comment from a lady nearby. This mentality is just unbelievable and something l`ve never encountered either in the uk or Germany !!
Wishing you all the best but if things don`t work out l would recommend Spain ! Weather just as good as Portugals but house/appartment prices, both for renting and buying, so much cheaper, if you look on the idealista spain website you will find plentyin all areas !
l have to agree that Portugal does have quite a few of those loud mouths around and the customer service, if you can call it that, leaves a lot to be desired, but if you`ve been to Spain, France or Germany l would be interested to hear how you found them !
Hello,
I'm planning to retire and move to Portugal by the next year.
I'm sick and tired of what is going on in my country.
I'm going to sell my house in Pacifica, CA and buy house in Portugal.
Please, if you find some good and "safe" place in Portugal or somewhere else, share with me.
Thank you very much, Robert
Bleach or bleach based products are the best to eliminate mold!
I'm completely agreed!
I'm well aware of the fact that while visiting foreign country we must obey certain local traditions and common rules, especially in Portugal:
"Don't pee in the ocean".
Wait, that's a rule we must follow?
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l don`t think anyone can say they they disagree,or agree about any particular language being more difficult than another. That is obviously your PERSONAL OPINION but that`s all it is. Every person will find a language easy or difficult, one may find Spanish easier than Portugues, another may not, or find Portuguese easier. There are no hard and fast rules, we are ALL different and lean languages in our own way !!
Hi James.... I'm a South African living in Tavira - please feel free to send me any questions you may have about living in SA. I left in 2000 but as I have a son and other family still living there, I visit at least once a year..... except of course, this year! There is no comparison between living in Portugal (I can only comment on the Algarve) and living in South Africa although I do have Portuguese family and friends who still love living there.
Thank you so much Sue for your advice.
The language is almost everything ma'am. Give Pimsleur Portuguese a spin, the audio course. There is a basic European Portuguese set, the rest is (or was) Brazilian but the pronunciation needs only a tweak to be understood. It may not be perfect, but the difference between this and having nothing is a million miles. If you can order a coffee at the local cafe, enquire about the health of the owners' family and garden, that will do. Bear in mind you will need to be financially independant, and not need the favour of the local town hall for virtually anything. Beware very large building projects. Learn the language FIRST before you come. If it doesn't take, pass, it really is make or break. Kind regards, R
Not really. Wouldn't beat Senegal or Botswana. Have you been to Africa? Now, if you're saying it would beat the US, the UK, Russia, Venezuela, well, you might have a point there.
And you waited 12 years to leave??
This article provides a really useful counterpoint to the usual cheerleading. But it seems that most that is written about Portugal concerns the urban areas or the Algarve. How much does it apply to more rural areas, particularly in the north?
We are looking at retiring to Portugal from (mountainous) western Colorado. We especially want an area with good scenic hiking and road biking. Cold in the winter is okay, but damp not so much. We're used to dry and like it that way. We've always lived in rural areas and aren't big socialites. Our area is simply beautiful, but politics and lack of civility weigh heavily.
From what I read, the Minho area looks really nice--perhaps right up to the Spanish border. Farther west in that northern area also seems good. How do those more rural areas rate in terms of pros and cons?
If we could move anywhere in the world, I think Switzerland would be first choice. That may give you an idea of our general preferences in terms of outdoor rec, people, rules, and governance. But high cost and difficulty of entry preclude that. Portugal has a lot to offer in terms of terrain, climate, and cost of living for those no longer working.
Any comments will be welcome!
Oops--meant "farther east" in the northern region, where it might be drier. The Peneda-Geres National Park is a big draw, so somewhere not too far from there.
Maybe Lionel should have his own mental health checked out me thinks after reading that rant :/
Hi, I have been living in the Porto area for 2 years - coming from Argentina-, and honestly, those 22 negative points are a sad reality. What affects us the most is the noise level - dogs and construction sites-. They never stopped working, drilling, or jack hammering during the Covid confinement... Lack of civility and negligence are rife here too...
The Minho: Northern Portugal doesn't look like Switzerland, but rather like Gaelic Scotland. Hilly and windy, wet in winter, but very hot in summer. You may want to consider a long term visit close to the Peneda Geres National Park to see if it is what you like. Closest town is Braga. Socializing and making friends amongst the locals is not obvious -they are very family orientated and do not invite you in even if you fluently speak Portuguese.
Now I have to admit it is a question of perspective. For exemple, Brazilians love it here as it is very safe compared to Brazil. But coming from Argentina, I found Portugal tight, narrow minded, noisy, smelly, crowded. But yes it is safe and retirees are only taxed 10% if they can prove they have not been permanent residents for the last 5 years.
Even outside big cities, electricity, gas, and buying a car are expensive, housing can be cheap inland but houses are often poorly insulated, poorly built, colder and damper inside than outside in winter, hot and stuffy in summer, especially inland. You will have to be ready to face quite a lot of revamping to make a local house comfortable.
So if you like it dry and warm, Northern Portugal may not be a good choice.
Southern Spain maybe?
Hi Kyle, unfortunately you are not alone in this noisy mess, we are suffering from noise pollution too in Porto, not only from dogs but mostly from construction sites -never seen so many cranes in my life.
During the Covid confinement, Portugal was one of the only European countries to allow construction sites to continue drilling and jack hammering 8 hours a day, driving people stuck inside their houses insane. All his because most politics have a foot in the construction business...
So there, another aspect of Portuguese life...
A lot of people have been complaining about construction during the lockdown period. I spoke to someone who's had construction going in on a neighbouring apartment for four months now. As Odile says, construction seems to involve a lot of jackhammers and heavy machinery.
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I appreciate very much your unbiased report and precise observations. Having lived in Portugal part-time for 26 years I can fully subscribe to each and every point on the list. I had a large quinta in rural Algarve which I left because of the cold and damp climate in winter, and the uneducated neighbourhood. And speaking the language did not make a big difference. Emigrating soon felt like a cultural and civil regression… Later I bought a house in Lagos, yet the cultural traits remain the same, also in urban Algarve. From my work in International Cooperation I know pretty well North African countries and the Arab mentality. For half a millenium Arabs ruled the greater part of Portugal, and Moroccan settlers arrived. This part of Portugal has been Arab for hundreds of years.
After their defeat, the Arab rulers left, yet the population remained, converted to Catholicism. Whenever I returned from my work in Morroco to my Algarve home I noted a kind of continuum: the same people, the same attitude as over there – the main difference being that they speak Portuguese… And I’m not joking here.
Today I can only recommend to anybody who reflects on emigrating to Portugal, in particular to the Algarve, to think twice.
By the way: Germany has become the most attractive destination for migrants (after the US) world-wide. That might surprise some readers from the island whose media socialisation comprises the weekly dose of Nazi films on TV – yet, at present, there’s hardly a better place to live as a foreigner, because here you’re not „um estrangeiro“, you’re respected, it’s easy to make friends, you have a high level of living and public service. And much more diverse and beautiful geographical regions than Portugal - apart from its beaches - has to offer.
Nancy
We, too, have been considering a relocation. And Portugal was one under consideration. Thanks to James’s honesty we are now scratching it off the list. These quality of life issues sound terrible so people who enjoy peace and quiet.
There are many safe places in the USA. But finding nice year round weather is impossible.
We seek warm but not hot, and dry but not desert. A place we can garden. As I’m sure most older people know cold and damp do not agree with age. Appreciate any ideas. We speak a little French and German.
However sometimes it’s best to visit and to live where “there’s no place like home”. All the stress of learning new societal rules in retirement isn’t for everyone.
Hi Jen and Jim,
A lot of the peace and quiet issues are mainly for those that live in apartment blocks. The damp is definitely an issue and, yes, it doesn't mix well with age or joint problems. There are heating solutions, such as pellet fires or underfloor heating, that help out a lot though.
As for learning societal rules, there's probably no getting around that one (although you can live in a very expat bubble here). Portugal has a different culture and sometimes, like you say, there's no place like home.
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Accident happened: car hit the stone wall of my house in Portugal: man seemed to be hurt and the car he drove was badly damaged. The driver broke the windshield of his car with his head upon impact and was bleeding from his cut open head... I ran quickly into the house to call 112. I spoke Portuguese to the operator as good as I could apologising for my weak Portuguese, yet the operator did not budge into English and continued arguing with me while I was telling him "Carrinha avaria, ambulanca po favor" (car accident, ambulance please at this address). He kept arguing telling me I have reached some kind of insurance agency (at 112 number, really?). It seemed like the 112 operator in Portugal was joking with me, arguing, wasting time while the man in the car accident may have needed medical help. Finally after much arguments the 112 operator hung up on me. I called 112 again and told them this is serious car accident and need poliuce and ambulance to help. The operator, already a different voice I think, was again telling me something about "segurança", so I understood that I need to call the man's car's insurance company. But this was an emergency and I seemed to not be able to explain in my weak Portuguese or understand what he was saying, and he did not speak to me in English even if I tried. And then the operator hung up on me again. So I thought they are on the way, but hours later I realized that no one came. So we ended up helping the man, and also pushing his smashed car out of the way and into my yard for storage. What would happen if the man or me or my family member was dying in Portugal.... this is SCARY and this 112 (911 in the USA for comparison) seems to be useless.
I forgot to mention that the driver of the car even if bleeding from his head he tried to start the car and to drive away from the place of the accident, so I called 112 not only for ambulance abut also for police since my property was also damaged. I am extremely disappointed in "112" "service" in Portugal and am thinking what to do now because I may need emergency services in the future and I saw how emergency came too late for my neighbour who received a stroke and died in pain taking long 6 months to die while emergency hospital could not help him. Is it possible to improve the 112 in Portugal somehow and how can I help?
Stumbled on your blog/site the other day, James.
Glad I did, as I found it to be informative and accurate in an honest way.!
This, based on my own experiences of a much shorter time living in Portugal.
Only been here permanently for 6 years now.
I had fun reading through the comments....but can not help asking myself the question that I have asked myself while living in S.E.Asia and in North America...in addition to Europe and a bit of South America...
why is it that people that leave their own culture to experience a different one, want to immediately find groups of people to hang out with, which are from their own culture.?
I think I have never been in any major town in the parts of the world that I have seen, where there was not an 'Irish Pub' or a "British Pub' or a German 'Biergarten'...
It is baffling to me...
My own decision to move to Portugal was based on the fact that I could not afford to live a decent retirement in my own country on the pension I am receiving, my distaste for endless amounts or snow or sweltering heat and my desire to live a more calm and peaceful life.
This seems not to be in a lot of people minds, who commented... perhaps an age thing.?
I moved to a tiny village in Central Portugal which had exactly one inhabitant...me.!
The idea was to experience ...less.!
Many of the downsides you mention, I have experienced. There have been frustrations and annoyances. I have lost my calm many times...but found it again, when I walked in the woods or sat in the sun, looking over the valley.
I do not speak Portuguese...gave up after a year, as my ears are too old and my mind is too scattered it seems. It is an impossible language because people 'shusss ' all the time, and everybody speak a different dialect, so it seems.
I did, however, plant flowers.
And after a year or so, the summer-visitors, who of course were all ex-locals, decided to get over their anxiety and started to include me in the summer rites of a Portuguese village.
They affirmed in me the believe that people will open themselves to you, given time and community can exist without common language or common cultural foundations.
I do not know how it is in the big cities, but have live din enough big cities to know that it changes people.
Here in the middle of nowhere, in the hills of Central Portugal, all is well... despite barking dogs.
Thank you for your efforts,
Mali
Hi James,
Your suggestion of areas in which to look at properties has proved productive,even for the very modest budget I have available.
I am concerned that I may not be able to visit Portugal for some months given the current public health situation throughout Europe including Britain. I have been living in London for many years. It had been my hope to to sample the winter weather but I cannot imagine travelling anywhere until Spring at the earliest.
Other concerns are the cold inside buildings plus the noise. Spanish properties seem more varied and possibly of superior construction. It also appears that many of the Portuguese properties are old ones that have been recently renovated or they need considerable updating..
On the Costa Del Sol I can get close to the coast and in the Canaries I can have both location and winter warmth.
I have looked at property as north as Aveiro and as south as all along the Algarve coast. There seem to be places like Portimao where it might be possible to get a property of two or three bedrooms within walking distance of a beach. I might be satisfied with something like that.
I am still unsure about the quality of internet connection for my business activity which is akin to but NOT trading in stocks and shares. I will be keen to try out the internet on my travels when I do make to Portugal.
To have the possibility of having additional income, I will have to consider where there is likely to be demand for rental space through tourism and/or flatsharing--something I know very little about.
James,you might know, how much demand there is likely to be for rental income if I bought in Setubal province in more obscure areas?
Regarding viewing properties without a car will require careful planning and the help of Estate Agents. My rough plan is to spend around a week in the Algarve just to see if I can afford anything there. I would need at least a two bed flat. I further would like to spend about two weeks in Setubal province and the Lisbon coastal region.
Any sensible suggestions will be appreciated.
Best wishes and stay safe,
Brian W
This article really seems to have hit a nerve with a lot of expats living here. For me the key thing is the CANNOT DO attitude that people have... i simply do not understand it....call the plumber and he will give appointment after appointment till he actually arrives, email SEF and there is no response for week after week till you tear your hair out of frustration, ask vodafone to update your internet plan follow up after followup till something actually happens, message your bank for updating your account again follow up after followup till something happens, i have so many stories of delays for even the most basic things.... i just do not understand it... i can tolerate everything else mentioned in this list, but this extremely strong, frog in the well, if it does not affect me then it does not bother me attitude is simply incomprehensible..... This is why Portugal will never be the next sillicon valley or the next germany or the next spain for that matter, it is not lack of money or lack of locations or lack of talent, it is simply this insouciant attitude of not bothering to do the work in front of you or thinking that it is some one elses problem to solve and not yours.
I hope someone high up reads this and starts an ad campaign OWN Your Work, Provide regular updates, start finishing and stop starting ...............jesus......even India was not so bad, you would call a help centre and at least someone would pick up and you could talk to a real person....
Hi Brian,
I would say that Spanish properties have similar issues to Portuguese properties, although it's a bigger and slightly wealthier country so there might be some more variation there.
As to internet quality, I really don't think you'll have a problem if you are able to get Fibre. Vodafone is probably the most recommended provider. There are thousands of people running online businesses in Portugal. Yes, I've stayed in some places with poor quality internet but you can get very fast internet if this is your priority.
As for tourism, it's difficult to say off-hand (especially now), but, if it's okay with you, I'm going to pass your details into a buyer's agent based in the Setúbal region who can answer those questions a little better.
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Hi James,
I'm happy to talk to a buyer's agent but disinclined to cotemplate paying the fee they may want. Whereas with the estate agents sharing commission I might be prepared to add a small fee for helping with viewings,etc,
I will keep following the market and thinking of further questions to ask you.
An adviser on all the financial side of a possible move might be a useful contact.
Thanks again,
Brian.
Laura,
I emailed Zena but haven't had a reply. Am I right in thinking you are American?
Best wishes,
Brian.
Hi Brian,
There are two types of buyer's agents, but the majority in Portugal don't charge a fee to the buyer - they split the commission with the seller. Both approaches have their pros and cons, but the no fee option is more appealing to most buyers for obvious reasons.
I will have a think about advisors on the financial side.
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Because when people move they do not realize that they may experience culture shock and miss their host culture. There is no set culture in the states so people do not think of this much. When people move to the states some do the same as well and comparatively speaking we accomodate people more than other places. I am not saying people should be accommodated to btw. I think we should all be kind to expats and immigrants in all places and not judge because judging just does not help.
Who do you believe is my question? An Expat Insider Survey indicated two-thirds of 18,000 expat respondents said making local friends in Portugual was easy. Overall Portugal was rated in the top ten countries for expats to make friends.
How about acupuncturists? Been doing it 30+ years in US, very successful... looking for a change.
Hi Patrick,
I've seen this survey too, but haven't spoken to anyone who felt it was accurate. Would be interesting to hear other people's thoughts.
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Hi Ken,
I don't really know about acupuncturists specifically but there's definitely a demand for skilled people who work in healthcare fields.
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This is one of the most interesting self-aware comments I have read and the most thought provoking. As a 70+ year old American, it gives me pause and is making me think about what I really want. Thank you.
The non-stop construction has also been a constant in the Netherlands throughout the partial lockdowns - including in apartment buildings. Absolute madness.
Hi Thomas!
I can see you are a good, kind man... But the problem here was that you got completely lost in translation.
“Carrinha avaria, ambulanca po favor”,
does not mean:
"car accident, ambulance please at this address)."
It means:
"The van broke down. Please at this address."
That's why they were telling you to call your insurance company - it is legally mandatory to have car insurance - and probably thought that you were keeping the line busy, preventing those in need from getting help. Which is illegal. It made you sound like some sort of a prankster.
I would humbly suggest that you either learn Portuguese or simpler. Just speak English. They will surely better understand you next time. Everyone speaks some English at that level in Portugal.
My personal experience: every time I called an ambulance in Portugal - in different parts of the country and throughout different decades - it came in minutes. Even in busy periods such as holidays, Saturday nights and such. But, then again, I do speak Portuguese...
In regards do the driver fleeing, most likely he had drunk too much and/or had some issue with his car and wanted to avoid the police.
Again, don't blame the 112 services for your lack of understanding of the Portuguese language. They work really good. Just speak English next time and you will be just fine.
And what about the lots of beggars asking from you money in every corner of the city? those who are professional and those who are really need it. I really like helping people and stock up with coins every day but in Lisbon it seems a little bit too much .
We are a family trying to move from Princeton NJ to Portugal as well, and your question of "house vs apartment" resonated much, as I am trying to figure that out as well. I am hoping to get to Portugal by Summer 2021, and in case I get there before you, I will update this post. In case you get there before us, I would appreciate if you could let us know your thoughts / experiences.
I read through a lot of comments, but dont think I have come across a question that has been bothering me for about a week, since we made the decision to relocate to Portugal (Janes, your article helped understand downsides, but didn't put us off from calling off the decision). We are US citizens with a young family, and 2 dogs. My wife and I work IT jobs and can work remote (although I prefer to retire), and are ready to make the 250k Euro investment to get the Golden Visa.
The question I have is -- there are a lot of websites available and vying for your business. Since this is the first article that seems to give me a dose of truth, rather than bland platitudes about Portugal, what has been the experience of others - who have moved. Did you guys use a firm, or apply online directly? If you used a firm, would you recommend them? What are the problems you have had?
Unfortunately, it's very difficult to know who are the genuine beggars, the "professional" beggars, and those who are most likely to spend the money on drugs or something else. This is the case everywhere, though.
It doesn't answer your question directly, but one option would be to donate to food banks.
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I appreciate the Candid coverage of Portugal, and the supporting comments to that end. I’m trying to escape the bureaucracy Of America, but may have to change my mind on Portugal. And Mold, big problem.
I would have thought the USA would be less bureaucratic than most places in Europe. Most of Southern Europe and even places like Germany have extremely high levels of bureaucracy.
Mold, it depends. For me it's mainly unsightly but for others it's a health hazard. You can keep on top of it with bleach or white vinegar though.
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Great summary James, very accurate from my perspective after living in the Algarve for two years now. Previously in the USA for 23 years. Most of the items do become normalized after a while but the over tourism is a real show stopper, particularly in the coastal areas. So much so the joke among some friends is that it is a bit like visiting a "Portugal World" at a Disney resort with a few Portuguese thrown in for local color and "authenticity"! The other thing we find hard is the lack of localization due to the single tourist economy. The small town we live in, and medium sized ones surrounding us, have very few amenities which mean by default you have to go to the larger tourist areas for shops, entertainment, better restaurants, sports etc. where there is no differentiation between you as a resident and a Brit or Northern European on a package deal. This does make it harder to feel integrated and part of a community, not to mention gouged rotten for mediocre service. We do miss the sense of 'home' we had back in the US whether in downtown Chicago or suburban Oklahoma!
Wow. Mali, you are really brave to go to a small village in Portugal without the language skills and I presume, not knowing anyone.
I'm thinking of Portugal for the same reasons you did. I can live better there than where I am now with my pension in a few years. But also, I like the culture, and out of all the Southern European countries I could go to, I would prefer Portugal.
I'd like to continue the conversation, if you like. It's rare to hear about a single female retiree living in Portugal. Thanks, Joanna
Just a quick thank you to James for setting up this site and facilitating such useful conversation about the reality of living in Portugal. The cons are daunting, but I'd like to think a place is what you make of it. And I agree a long term "living" (not tourist) trial is key. Thanks to everyone for your honesty.
Similar complaints from expats about living Spain. Some are valid points and to some extent true, not deal breakers though. However, my observation about the expats from the western countries like UK or Germany - they often try to escape serious problems and bring them from one country to another. Not willing to learn about the culture or language, most giving up after one lesson and going back to their Biergarten or Pub. Then after years, mostly when their silly business idea falls apart or their savings are gone, they got really mad and are forced to return. And then there is this arrogant "they have to live like us" attitude, why should they? Their standards of living are very high.
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haha, I was enjoying your detailing of your travails, Roland, I said to myself, this sounds like my travels thru India in the late 70s, then I got to your comment re India. Many thanks for the comparison - while I loved it back then in my early 30s, I couldn't take the grind of it now, in a place like Portugal. So I was very happy to gain the insights of people like you who have had the first hand experiences. And the language does sound daunting.
.
Maybe I'll just suck up to L.A. and hang here:0)
Much appreciated your comments!
Jon,
Thanks!! To put this in perspective, my wife and I are looking to retire in Europe. Fully 80% of our mutual bucket lists are in Europe or the Med.
So just counting my wife's retirement and my Social Security, that would be at least 6509€ per month. So, 640€+? 2000€ for a car? Hell, our current mortgage payment is at least 1,800€/month...
We all come from disparate economic situations. My real big question is this.... Does Portugal get thunderstorms that don't threaten to burn down the country? As a Navy Brat, I lived on the US East coast, mostly southern states, plus bella Napoli, where I learned to love thunderstorms....
My next big question is will my medicos speak English, or can I easily find ones that do?
€6k per month is a lot of money in Portugal, especially when you're retired. You should be very comfortable here.
Portugal gets some good thunderstorms every now and then, but I haven't been to the East Coast to compare. Someone else might know.
As for finding a doctor that speaks English, many do but the easiest way to guarantee it is to get private health insurance as the private hospitals all tend to have English-speaking doctors. The next best thing is to live in an area where a lot of English is spoken like Lisbon, the Algarve, or Madeira. A combination of both isn't a bad idea as the private hospitals can't always cover everything and you may have to use the public hospitals from time to time (although your private insurance will often bump you up the waiting lists).
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Hi Julie,
Like you I live in the S.F bay area and my fiancé and I are planning a move to Portugal in the next 12-24 months. I’d love to get together and share information if you are interested.
Thanks,
Kandace
Kandacekarcher@gmail.com
Hi Dan, we are living in Aveiro, Portugal, for 4 years now and absolutely love it. It’s true, in the northern region and at the coast you have damp climate in winter, we need a humidifier to fight mold, but that happened the same way when we lived near Boston. It’s the downside of the Atlantic climate.
You might be better off in the center region east of the Serra d’Estrela mountains or in Alentejo. We are in the process of buying a property near Castelo Branco. Be aware of the forest fires in the mountain and coastal region, where they grow a lot of Eucalyptus. This is causing trouble. We decided to buy in an area with Olive orchards with mountains within 30min teach. The eastern Alentejo region is absolutely beautiful, reminded us a bit of Tuscany, but it has more hills than mountains.
If you have the chance, visit or at least take video tours of the property.
As for bureaucracy it’s half as bad if you take a local with you and don’t tru to resolve things online. You need to talk to someone in person. It always worked. I found it sometimes worse in the US even though speaking English, as it gets harder and harder to speak to a human representative on the phone.
However, making Portuguese friends is a bit harder than expected, even visiting a local Baptist Church, but the Brazilians or Angolans are very open and warm hearted, as most Portuguese already have their circle of friends and It’s not very common in the cities to open your house and invite people (might be still linked to the dictatorship which lasted until 1974).
All in all, Portugal is beautiful, it offers amazing food and a lot of history. Regarding nature, Colorado is hard to beat, but Portugal has its charme, too.
Aveiro, Vila Nova de Gaia or Espinho has decent internet speeds. Home office works for me, sometimes connection slows down, but video calls were possible with a few exceptions due to covid and everyone using video...
Thank you for this refreshingly honest critique Jack! And thank you James for this wonderful blog/forum. I’ve had it with societal aggression after witnessing the US insanity during Covid/2020 and while I was considering Portugal and specifically the Algarve region for shorter term winter stays (3-4 months) I am now reconsidering this idea. I live in Canada which is an especially friendly place (we say “sorry” a lot) where life is easy to navigate in all aspects (housing, banking, medical care, all amenities, language, etc) and in retirement I would prefer to avoid the challenges that have been detailed in this blog. When the world opens up again I think we will take a closer look at southern Italy/ Sicily instead for longer stays in retirement. I don’t think we could tolerate the noise, the inhumane treatment of animals (dogs) and the uncaring nature of the society in Portugal. We have always enjoyed our visits to Italy and the hospitable nature of the people. Language has never been an issue in Italy and most other European countries since many have at least a smattering or better of English, and when not there is at least an honest attempt to communicate two ways using our phone apps, our hands and facial expressions, etc. Southern Spain in the Seville area is another option to consider as we have also had good experiences there.
Hi Rebecca,
I've never lived in Italy but I've heard it's challenging to integrate and there's lot of bureaucracy. I have lived in Spain and it has a lot of the problems that I've seen in Portugal, but I would say it's slightly easier to live there. I could be wrong, though, as I have spent a lot more time in Portugal than in Spain.
If you're only coming to Portugal/Spain/Italy for 3-4 months, and I assume that means not becoming resident here, you will avoid many of the challenges people living here face.
The noise issues are often avoidable if you go for a house rather than an apartment. Well, sometimes. It can be a bit of a lottery.
As to the uncaring nature of people, I think that's a bit to do with where you're coming from. The way people from Canada and other English-speaking countries interact with neighbours/strangers is quite different to how people in the rest of the world, including Southern Europe, interact. Although I prefer one way, I have to remind myself that's just because of where I was raised.
haha, and I enjoyed reading your comment in response to Roland's.
Don't give up on Portugal... personally, my experience of it has not been as acute as Roland's and the positives hugely outweigh the negatives... especially compared to LA.
I have to say, I have a sneaking suspicion we may have met: I lived in Venice Beach 1997 to end of 1999. I knew a Patricia who would have been about your age. We went hiking together once or twice in Malibu (La Jolla Canyon, Malibu, I think... long time ago now). That Patricia would have been the kind of person to have travelled in India, and to contemplate a move to Portugal!
Having been a top producing Buyers Agent in South Carolina, USA, where fiduciary (representational) real estate is recognzed and scrupulously regulated, and having bought 4 properties in Northern Portual, I can say there is no concept of buyers agency here and there is no regulaton of real estate here. There may be a few individual agents who are ethical, but as a while it is a Wild West and Buyer Beware.
This article is very good and eye opening. We were planning to move to Portugal in 2021, but this article, along with more research I did today, made us change our minds. I will find very difficult to tolerate a lot of things, but dog noise and their owners indifference is the last and biggest last straw that broke the camels back.
In fact, I just read that today that yesterday, December 29, three people died in an altercation over a barking dog in a town 30 Km south of Lisbon (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34100488). I've been to countries where barking dogs is just normal, and those animals are treated as alarms rather than pets. Therefore, I understand that it's a cultural problem in Portugal that won't change any time soon.
I just read other articles of people being driven to madness by barking dogs, while their owners are oblivious and impervious to it. My research tells me that Spain is about the same.
We are very sensitive to noise, and living with constant dog barking will be living hell.
Thanks for the article!
Hi Wendy,
I don't have experience of the US real estate market, but the Portuguese one is quite unregulated in comparison to many other countries. It's very easy to get a real estate licence, and this means there are a lot of cowboys out there. You do need to do a lot of research here, and get whatever external help you can get - especially legal help.
The term buyers agent is a new concept here and, yes, a lot of realtors are just using the phrase because it attracts buyers (esp from North America). There are some good ones out there, though - people who are trying to help you buy a good quality property and who aren't simply in it to split commissions. If you can find them, these guys are worth their weight in gold.
Very salient points. I've lived here for 5 years now. I built and renovated houses in the UK so built my own eco house here with the help of a Romanian firm. Locals did the foundations but from the first truck arriving from Romania I moved in 50 days later. That speed is unheard of here and it isn't damp or mouldy. I couldn't live in any of the Portuguese houses I viewed.
The other biggy for me is animal welfare. I hoped to develop a thicker skin, I haven't. So I set up a small charity helping old and abandoned dogs. It helps me think I'm making a difference, however small. Attitudes are changing towards animals but it will take time. Having recently spent 4 day in London and the SE I couldn't wait to get back to the Silver Coast - wet winters and all.
Hello,
My wife and I are planning on moving to Portugal upon my retirement in a few months and Setubal is high on our list. If you ended up moving there any insight or suggestions would be appreciated. We plan on renting for a good while until we're sure we want to settle. We've been looking through Idealista for rentals but there are any other resources you could recommend it would greatly be appreciated as well.
Well said!
I second George's comment on Portuguese Dentists, complete lack of ethics, including the dental board, what a joke.
George, please tell us some good recommendations on Czech dentists, we are in desperate need to repair the damage done here by dental crooks/incompetents.
I wouldn't change your mind on Portugal after reading these comments. I just moved to Portugal from California a month ago. So far there isn't anything that would change my mind. It also depends on why you are moving here. I would not come here for work. The taxes and wages, compared to the US, offset the positives. I am semi-retired, but at the moment I still have my IT job from CA. Portugal offers a nice tax incentive for foreigners (NHR... nonhabitual resident), which allows you to not pay tax on any foreign sourced income for 10 years. When one is retired it matters less how long things take to get done and bureaucracy, although still annoying, is not really a showstopper.
If you are moving here with some money in the bank, many downsides can be mitigated. I paid a couple thousand dollars for an immigration services company to help with some of the bureaucracy and it is worth it. I moved into an apartment in Lisbon, but I specifically chose to live in a newer area (Parque das Nações). It is one of the more expensive areas of Lisbon, but I have central heating/AC, a dishwasher, a clothes washer/dryer and a parking spot in a secure garage. The building is maybe 20 years old. No issues with mold or anything like that. The rent is €1050 for a 1 bd/1ba. I live 1 block from the marina/tejo river. The nearest metro (and mall) is less than 15 mins by foot. Some things I've noticed though.
1. The winters are colder than I thought, but similar to the San Francisco Bay Area in CA.
Again, living in a newer apartment with central heating is a MAJOR plus.
2. Although some people are helpful, a lack of knowledge can cause issues. Examples:
A. I signed 2 contracts with Vodafone to install internet/tv svc. The first one they cancelled
when I was out of the country for a couple weeks before they could install the service.
When I attempted to resign the contract, they said service wasn't available in my
building. I then confirmed that other tenants had service. Then they said they could
install service in 1 week. 10 days later I was informed they could not install service
because of insufficient capacity. So 5 weeks after moving in I gave up and signed up for
service with MEO. They are scheduled to install this week
B. The immigration service helping with the residence permit said we would have to wait 3
weeks for an appointment, but it turns out we could schedule an appointment within a
couple days. This turned out to be a major inconvenience because my wife had to return
to the US before she could complete the interview.
The point behind these two examples is that many people here may try to be helpful, but sometimes they just don't know what they are talking about. Instead of saying I don't know, or let me find out, they just say whatever they've heard through word of mouth, which can cause you headaches. Luckily, once residence is established and you have a place to live, these things become a non-issue.
Besides a cost of living that has about half of CA, I have top of the line health insurance for about $100/month, with no deductible. My crappy insurance with my employer in CA costs about $1500/month and has a high deductible. This is a huge plus for living in PT. Also, I moved here because I really like the language, so learning it is a positive for me... but English is very prevalent unlike many other countries in Europe.
My apologies for the long post, but if you are thinking about moving here from the US, I wouldn't be deterred, unless your purpose is to move here to work, apart from remote work.
Ravi. I also work in IT and for now my employer is letting me work remotely. Once they change their mind I will quit. I moved to PT about a month ago, but it is only my wife and dog. As she is a EU citizen from another country, it is easy for us to establish residence. As I understand it the Golden Visa requires buying a property. I did not choose this option because I wanted to rent for a while to be sure I want to live here. I also prefer to keep my savings invested in the stock market as my returns have been very good. In order to navigate the bureaucracy and help with some of the red tape, we contacted EI imigrante (http://eimigrante.pt/en/). They have been pretty helpful. The cost was a couple thousand dollars, depending on the services/help you need. I'm not sure if they help with the Golden Visa, but they might be able to provide some direction.
I think it depends on where you live. I live in a newer apartment building in a newer (and more expensive part) of Lisbon (Parque das Nações). There are people here with dogs, but it is very quiet most of the time. People seem very civil and normal. The fact that 3 people died in an altercation over a barking dog shouldn't be a deterrent. I was far more concerned from the level of violence in the US when I lived there. More and more the attitude of many Americans is self-centered and hostile (i.e. F.U., I will do what I want). You can see this in the current political climate and during protests. Portugal is far more civil and less hostile. Of course there is always isolated incidents which you see on the news, but you never hear about all the other situations where things are better.
I would definitely not agree that tv/internet here is expensive. Near San Francisco, CA where I used to live, I paid about $160/month, without cell phone service. My mother lives in Southern CA and pays about $240/month... again without cell service. Now I pay €60 ($70) per month, for 200 channels of tv, 200mps internet service, and cell service with 20GB/month (this is with MEO). There's no way that internet/tv is expensive here. Perhaps you are from another part of the US or another part of the world where this service is cheaper, but that is hard to imagine. Now electricity on the other hand, is quite expensive. I believe the rate is one of the highest in the EU.
Where I live in Lisbon it is very quiet and civilized. I work California hours (9-5 Pacific time, 5pm-1am Portugal time), and I sleep in until 10 or 11am. In fact, some days I sleep later. I live in a newer apartment building with good insulation and double pane windows. The neighborhood is clean and I'm 1 block from the Tejo River in Parque das Nações. Although I've only lived here about a month, I have no complaints with dogs or any type of noise. This area does tend to be expensive though.
Hi Julie. I just moved to Lisbon from the SF Bay Area about a month ago. I moved to a a newer neighborhood in Portugal which is relatively expensive (Parque das Nações), but it is quiet. I pay €1050/month for a 1 bd/1ba. Everything was built within the last 20 years so the buildings all seem to have modern conveniences. I have my own parking place in a secure garage, washer/dryer, dishwasher and central heat/AC. I live within a 5-15 min walk to many restaurants, shops, a large mall (Vasco da Gama), and a metro/train station. It takes about 20 mins to get to the center of Lisbon and about 10 mins to the airport.
I have seen a few negative responses being posted, but have not experienced any of this, except for some red tape and bureaucracy. I suspect one thing that might account for negative experiences depends not only on where you live, but how much you pay. In less expensive neighborhoods, buildings may be more noisy, less insulated and neighbors may have a different mentality. It is possible that in more expensive areas, people may be more respectful and might care about where they live. Where I live there is no trash on the ground and although lots of people have dogs, I rarely hear much barking or noise.
In any case, I have no regrets about moving and apart from being a little lonely, I do enjoy being here. I also work in tech (remotely) but will likely retire if my employer revokes my work overseas privilege. One word of warning... depending on your age, you may have an issue getting private insurance. I am 47 yrs old and have health insurance through Medis. I pay for the top of the line policy, which is about $100/month. There are no deductibles and I think the policy is very good; however, from my understanding they might not offer a policy to NEW customers who are over 55. If you have the policy before you are that age, they won't stop insuring you though. BEFORE YOU MOVE, I would verify that you can get health insurance, especially since your husband has heart issues.
Hi Robert. I was also sick on the nonsense in the US. I also fled the SF Bay Area for Portugal. I would not buy a place here though until you've lived here a while, just to be sure you want to stay. I decided to rent and have been here about a month. So far so good. Most places here are much safer than in the US. Although Pacifica is very nice, except for that damn fog. If you don't mind the same type of weather you can live in the north of Portugal. I don't like the cold and decided to live in Lisbon... specifically Parque das Nações. It is very expensive for Portugal and one of the more expensive areas of Lisbon, but still about half the price (or less) of the Bay Area. The weather in Lisbon is about the same overall as the Bay Area.
Hi Robert. I was also sick on the nonsense in the US. I also fled the SF Bay Area for Portugal. I would not buy a place here though until you've lived here a while, just to be sure you want to stay. I decided to rent and have been here about a month. So far so good. Most places here are much safer than in the US. Although Pacifica is very nice, except for that damn fog. If you don't mind the same type of weather you can live in the north of Portugal. I don't like the cold and decided to live in Lisbon... specifically Parque das Nações. It is very expensive for Portugal and one of the more expensive areas of Lisbon, but still about half the price (or less) of the Bay Area. The weather in Lisbon is about the same overall as the Bay Area.
James, you can always suggest for expats to consider moving to newer buildings with these amenities. I live in Parque das Nações in Lisbon and have no noise issues. I also have central heating/AC, washer/dryer, dishwasher, an elevator in the building and designated parking in a secure garage. Most of the buildings in this area are new and have similar amenities. Of course this is one of the more expensive areas of Lisbon, but it is about half the price of apartment in some areas of California. Usually you get what you pay for, and Portugal is no exception to this.
James, you can always suggest for expats to consider moving to newer buildings with these amenities. I live in Parque das Nações in Lisbon and have no noise issues. I also have central heating/AC, washer/dryer, dishwasher, an elevator in the building and designated parking in a secure garage. Most of the buildings in this area are new and have similar amenities. Of course this is one of the more expensive areas of Lisbon, but it is about half the price of apartment in some areas of California. Usually you get what you pay for, and Portugal is no exception to this.
Hi Todd,
Great point!
Re: the noise issues, do you live on the top floor?
Hi Gillian,
Well done for setting up the dog charity. If it is in/near Lisbon, I would love to help out when I move there.
Portuguese people often cut in line and are not ashamed to do it. When confronted they act innocent or they act as if they don't understand what the problem is?
Sadly true.
I did speak English too, in addition to my attempt speaking Portuguese: I said: "Car accident, man is hurt and is bleeding, ambulance please". Also asking for "ambulança" in Portuguese means someone is hurt and not (only) a car accident.
We live on around €500 a month two people, no rent, no property tax, own a house and are frugal, thus can make it with very little money. Grow our own fruits, vegetables, but also shop for food in the stores.
In Portugal many (most?) companies and services are unprofessional, lazy, careless, unreliable. They don't have this or that and they are unwilling to order them for you. If they do, you may receive wrong ones or wrong colour, or broken, bent ones, damaged goods, ugly design, low quality. As it seems Portugal is a dumping ground for lowest cheapest quality goods made by unmarked companies without any brand name and warranty is not respected. Beware oif dentists and their low quality workmanship which can infect you intentionally or ot with a variety of viruses and diseases. Private property is not respected and the neighbours are extremely nosy, can enter your property for any reason or no reason without asking you and take anything they want from it. Primitive and backward society. Seem "friendly" on the surface, but something else deep inside. Thieves and crooks mostly, with a few honest individuals in between. Dishonest and not caring and very selfish indeed.
One very nasty downside developed in the past year in Portugal. Not exactly in the past year but over the past 2-3 years. The international inbound mail delivery used to arrive at Lisbon and then was distributed across Portugal and the islands within a week's time. That week turned into 2 weeks and then into3-4 weeks. So for an Azores or Madeira resident a registered letter from say Germany took about 2 to 4 weeks from Germany to Lisbon alone, sometimes faster, but then another month is to wait to receive the mail from Lisbon to the Azores or Madeira. But now quite often one has to wait up to 2 months just to have the mail take the route from Lisbon to the islands! Which is excruciatingly slow and is absolutely unacceptable. Many people are complaining, even the Portuguese, that are used to dictatorship and fascism, themselves are complaining on the internet about the slow delivery of mail and an occasional event when their mail arrives cut open and inspected by the unknown unprofessional entity, sometimes resealed and sometimes wide open. Without any professional seal, signature or even an identifying tape. Resident in Madeira? Prepare to wait at least 2-3 month for your mail to arrive, even from Spain! It takes on average 6 months for ordered goods from China to arrive in the islands. Back to the stone age! This is the XXI century.
every hour
every hour
My husband and I were planning on retiring in Portugal with out 2 dogs. One reason was safety, affordability and lower taxes. Now I wonder if we should. I dont like the way they apparently treat their animals. I also dont think I could stand the constant negativity. We looked at France but everyone says the taxes are high there as well. Also Italy.
We receive US social security and US pensions plus savings. I heard Italy charges 43% and France 25% tax.
Now I’m totally confused as to where to go.
My husband and I were planning on retiring in Portugal with out 2 dogs. One reason was safety, affordability and lower taxes. Now I wonder if we should. I dont like the way they apparently treat their animals. I also dont think I could stand the constant negativity. We looked at France but everyone says the taxes are high there as well. Also Italy.
We receive US social security and US pensions plus savings. I heard Italy charges 43% and France 25% tax.
Now I’m totally confused as to where to go.
Hi Alison,
European taxes are sometimes high. It's just a fact of life, unfortunately, although you do have to factor in things like healthcare into the equation. I would recommend speaking to an actual expert (which I definitely am not) but the NHR scheme here is designed to lower the amount of taxes you pay.
The things you mention (negativity, treatment of animals) vary, and I would also say they're common in a lot of other European countries. I've lived in France for a little bit, for example, and people aren't always particularly friendly there. Can't really speak to Italy.
Ultimately, if you want to live in a European country like Portugal, Italy, or France, I think you need to come and experience each culture and decide which one you feel you could live in. That country will have cons as well as pros, but that's just a part of life.
Get the book Moving to Portugal Made Simple on Amazon now
I'm glad to read this because a lot of ties in with my experience and I’ve not seen much else published that concurs.
I hear a lot of people saying the Portuguese are friendly. I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade; if an immigrant has a positive outlook of their host community then that’s got to be good. But I do feel many times I hear this view, it’s poorly considered or poorly formed.
In my experience, this view comes from people who:
Are Portuguese. They can’t give an immigrant’s perspective.
Have been here on holiday. They don’t know what it’s like to live here and their opinion is based on the hospitality industry. People who are friendly because it’s their job might not be proof of a friendly populace overall.
Live here but can afford to pay to have all the bureaucracy etc done, and/or mix in exclusively well-off immigrant communities. They also don’t really have great sources for their views.
I'm rarely presented with solid evidence of why the Portuguese are friendly.
I’ve lived and worked in 8 different countries and travelled in 50+ more, covering 4 continents. I have friends from host communities of most places I’ve lived. I make friends where I go. I’ve been in Portugal for 4&1/2 years and I don't have Portuguese friends.
I have a circle of immigrant friends here from a range of countries. We’re all happy to make friends regardless of nationality, but the Portuguese don’t want to be friends with us.
When we speak Portuguese in shops, they reply in English – even direct responses that prove they’ve understood us. Why? I think it’s because they see us as outsiders. They don’t smile. They don’t make much effort to help. They don’t reply to messages and mails. Some of these may be just the “can’t do attitude” mentioned often on this page, but it still shows the host community aren’t friendly by nature. Of course, by their own norms, some of these behaviours may be fine, but by global indices, it’s not friendly, and it needs to be global indices by which a nationality is judged.
Does any of this matter? That depends. I have to live here for family reasons and that ranks more than any lack of host friendliness. It is what it is – if you don’t like it, leave, and if you can’t leave, deal with it. There’s no obligation on the host community to adapt for immigrants. But I do think it’s important for people to know there are views out there other than the brochures, or if they’re here and they’re feeling some negativity, it might not be all their own doing.
I'm not saying the Portuguese are bad people. They're not fighting in the streets or smashing places up.. The cops aren't routinely killing people of different ethnicities. You'll be OK here. Just don't believe the hype! In my experience, in other places the people are more polite, more welcoming, more inclusive, more helpful, much more friendly.
For this reason I could not live there...this would be detrimental to my health, causing high blood pressure from all the frustration. That would literally drive me insane!
How have you learned Portuguese? I find it very difficult to learn. Any recommendations are helpful (I'm American)!
bUT MOST OF IT IS RENEWABLE ENERGY POWERED BY WIND TURBINE? ISN´T THIS WHAT WE WANT RATHER THAN OIL AND COAL?
Having visited Setúbal many times, I would say be careful about the area you live in. Some parts are a bit rough to say the least. It is a city, and has all that would be expected of a city. However, just up the road is Palmela. Nicer in my opinion and there is one guy in the Câmara who speaks English and is really nice. When we went to Setúbal Loja de Cidadão, we had a much harder time as no one spoke English.
We live in a village in Central Portugal and regularly have beggars knocking on our door. We gave them money at Christmas but not otherwise. You have to laugh at how quickly they learn the English for money. They are not aggressive though and one of the least annoyances about living in Portugal.
In Portugal during rainy and windy days the DSL internet and telephone connection is frequently lost. Some days internet is on and off within a couple minutes all day long. Opening a support ticket does not help since technicians are not well trained and are unable to repair the problem, which lasts for months and years at a time. Internet speed is sadly slow whenever internet connection works. Yet crediting the lost time or refund is not on the cards for the Portuguese internet telephone companies.
In Portugal during rainy and windy days the DSL internet and telephone connection is frequently lost. Some days internet is on and off within a couple minutes all day long. Opening a support ticket does not help since technicians are not well trained and are unable to repair the problem, which lasts for months and years at a time. Internet speed is sadly slow whenever internet connection works. Yet crediting the lost time or refund is not on the cards for the Portuguese internet telephone companies.
Having lived here for over a year now, I have come across nearly all the cons in the list and agree with them wholeheartedly. There are only 2 things which make me frustrated enough to consider leaving Portugal - cold houses and the incredibly slow and inefficient bureaucracy.
I am sitting in my house with two blankets on me, and it is the middle of the day. My house is reasonably well insulated too. I didn’t move to Portugal to live like this!!
We had an agent who messed up our NHR application and said we were resident in 2020 rather than 2019 so we were initially rejected. We appealed in July 2020 and are still waiting in January 2021 for a decision from the Finanças. So our tax status is very unsettled. We feel totally out of control of the situation. (Moral of this story, apply yourself, it is much easier than we thought)
Apart from these two things we can put up with everything else so far. We haven’t had a lot of luck, and several things have gone badly wrong, but we have managed to get through it all with the help of Deepl translator and minimal Portuguese (not met many English speakers in officialdom here). So, I guess, plan for the worst, hope for the best is a good motto here.
Having lived here for over a year now, I have come across nearly all the cons in the list and agree with them wholeheartedly. There are only 2 things which make me frustrated enough to consider leaving Portugal - cold houses and the incredibly slow and inefficient bureaucracy.
I am sitting in my house with two blankets on me, and it is the middle of the day. My house is reasonably well insulated too. I didn’t move to Portugal to live like this!!
We had an agent who messed up our NHR application and said we were resident in 2020 rather than 2019 so we were initially rejected. We appealed in July 2020 and are still waiting in January 2021 for a decision from the Finanças. So our tax status is very unsettled. We feel totally out of control of the situation. (Moral of this story, apply yourself, it is much easier than we thought)
Apart from these two things we can put up with everything else so far. We haven’t had a lot of luck, and several things have gone badly wrong, but we have managed to get through it all with the help of Deepl translator and minimal Portuguese (not met many English speakers in officialdom here). So, I guess, plan for the worst, hope for the best is a good motto here.
I second that. Locals are served first in the shops often, even if they came in after us. We are made to wait a long time. Many enterprises including health are especially openly discriminating, but not everyone is like that. We have donated things and money to the locals and organizations. We did have make a friend or two, who are from Lisbon or from Cabo Verde. There are other friendly people here who invite us for a chat. It's not that bad, but there are not so nice people everywhere in the world. We are planning to donate our property to local parks and organizations once we are done in this life. There is no point to let anyone else inherit it.
Try moving to Louisiana. Cheap and warm and no need to immigrate.
They do poison everyone's cats here, but we did not catch who is doing this. There are plenty of thieves in the neighbourhood who even steal things of low value such as flower pots, ornaments. Everything we had unattached in our front yard is gone now to the thieves and their kids. Once my neighbour complained that their cats have been poisoned and they seemed to suspect... who? Me! So I offered them to provide our newly born kittens to them once they hit a month's age. We always donate something to the locals and are nice to them, give them jobs, the money etc. Many people are genuinely nice and polite, others are quite rude, but it's okay. You never know what's going on inside of someone's heart or mind.
Hi Gillian, thank you for your story it's very inspiring.
We also want to relocate, we are from Romania, I lived in UK for 10 years I loved it and now I miss it so much, I had to come back to Romania for my family and now we want to relocate to Portugalia because of the weather, latin roots and swimming.
I am curios to know about the prices they ask if you want to build an eco house not very big and in Algarve. Wanted to know about the Romanian firm may I know the name so we can find out if its a convenient option for us.
Also what do you think it's better to buy an apartment renovate it and then rent it and then buy a house or build it ? Regarding the taxes its still unclear whats bthe best option if you want to live and also invest so you cover all the bills plus living costs. Looking forward hearing your input, until then greetings from Romania.
Hi Hugo and thank you, what do you mean they ? meaning most people or some bad people that hate cats? We want to bring our 6 cats with us we were thinking how will travel across Europe from Romania with six cats and now I read they poison cats its really bad, I hope it's just one case. Do people are so cruel with animals back there? thats such disappointment.
Hi James, We have spoken with you in the past...primarily about Portugal taxation of USA Social Security. This is an ongoing discussion for last few years on many blogs and websites...We agreed that the answer is hard to find...without actually paying some legal or accounting consultant to get the info and even then you cant be sure. Last we heard is that Portugal legislature last year passed a law eliminating NHR program Is that true? anyway, if I relocate to Portugal and do not work and have ONLY USA Social Security, is Portugal gonna tax it? and if so, at what rate? the sticking pint seems to be whether Portugal considers SS as a private pension or public (government) pension...which it is.
Could you possibly private message me on this to my personal email?
Thank you Steve, this is very interesting. Would you mind sharing which countries you have found to be the best in terms of friendliness, helpfulness, politeness, inclusiveness and being welcoming?
Good God, thank you very much to the person who initiated this blog. You have certainly opened my eyes. I had been doing a lot of research on line regarding living in Portugal (6 mo of the year) and the other 6 mo at my home in the USA. I even looked into learning the basics of the Portuguese language before traveling later this year on a "exploratory/vacation" trip to Portugal. After reading most of the posts, I've realized two things;
1. I'm almost certain that all the positive reviews I'd read on the internet about Portugal, their people, climate, etc. come from biased tourists oriented adv. companies in order to promote their agenda and enrich their pockets. (I'm not saying that it is a horrible place to live, is just that these companies do NOT voluntarily provide the real "cons" of living in any of the countries they promote on their websites.
2. Retiree from the state of California, I relocated to Texas at the early age of 59 1/2. I can deal with utilities being expensive, homes having poor insulation, etc in Portugal; but the issues I'll will certainly NOT tolerate are the people "can't do" attitude, total disregard for the quiet and comfort of your neighbors, utter disregard from communications companies, banking sector and government offices in providing efficient, prompt and courteous customer service.
At 63 years old, I'm going back to my original plans. Stay in Houston (where cost of living is a 1/4 of what it is in California and access to excellent medical care) and just travel around the world just a little bit at a time once this Covid 19 lightens up. I'm sure Portugal just like the rest of Europe is a wonderful place to visit but I rather take any aggravations here at home where I can resolve them in a more satisfactory manner.
Hi Gillian, would love to hear what company you used in Romania for your home. If you wouldn’t mind sharing? We are busy researching options for our own build as well, that is eco.
Do you mind if I also ask how long it took you to get planning permission to build your house?
And what company here in Portugal did your foundations for you?
Would be interested to know to help aid us in our research, if you don’t mind sharing?
And thank you for the work you are doing helping animals. I am a huge animal lover too.
Thanks so much, Sam
Hi Ravi, we used an AMAZING company that have been specialising in helping people immigrate to Portugal for many years. They are so professional and do a fantastic job.I’ve sent a few friends/contacts their way and they all have had great experiences with them too. Company is called Passport to Portugal, ask to speak to Chris and mention that I sent you - he always lets me know when someone has reached out and it feels good to help others go through the process of inmigrating here as smoothly as we’ve experienced. Couldn’t imagine doing it any other way really. Samantha
Hi Cathy,
Regarding being able to make friends among the host community, of the places I've properly lived and worked: India, Australia, Turkey, Spain, and to a lesser extent Japan, I made good connections in various circles. With neighbours, in bars and cafes, at the football etc; got to know people and friendships developed.
If we talk about politeness, and helpfulness in terms of customer service, then Japan wins by miles. But wherever I made friends, they helped me with things I needed.
But all these places have their own downsides in other areas. In India, it's hard to rely on anything, Australia is far away and getting expensive, Japan is extortionate, Turkey isn't well organised, Spain has cold houses in winter like Portugal.....
And it's not that you'll never be treated as an outsider in those places. But in my experience, it's less than in Portugal. I learned some of the language quicker, I started to understand the politics and popular culture more deeply, things like that, and these were a knock-on effect of feeling more like I belonged.
Greetings from Lisboa...I have been living in Portugal for over 4 years now...I'm from Austin, Texas...Your list is pretty spot on...Ask yourself what are the reasons for leaving a place to begin with...For me it was simple, Austin and the energy was changing...The cost to live in the areas you want to be in, are becoming too expensive for most...It's no different here in Portugal...Most Portuguese can't afford to live in the really great areas, and are having to either leave the country, many work in Switzerland and etc. or move further and further away and commute...One Portuguese engineer told me, you don't move to Portugal to work for a local company, you move to Portugal with money in the bank...retirement, investments and etc. Everything you have pointed out has in one way or another crossed my path...However at the end of the day, I'm in control of my happiness and well being, not Portugal and or the U.S.A. I'll take the con's any day, than the cons in the U.S.A. here in Portugal...Get Busy living...
Hi Todd,
Thanks for all the info you've shared about your experience. We need a well heated place with good internet. I really found it very helpful! One question, we have two small to medium dogs, is it difficult to find a place that will allow for well behaved pets?
Hi Gillian. I’m totally crazy about animal rescue. I have 5 rescue dogs and just moved to São Brás de Alportel last November from London. I have joined a volunteer group to walk shelter fogs. Where are you situated?
What do you mean ‘hunt down the dogs’??? You don’t sound like a very nice or stable person yourself. If you don’t like it LEAVE. No wonder I prefer animals to people.
Thank you for explaining a little more. I’m from Brazil and lived in the USA for 7 years now. To be legal here was a very long process, and trust me, people here do not know everything either. I even had a hard time filing my tax return, because SS had my name wrong. So it is a big deal anywhere you go. But as you said, after all of this is gone, you get to enjoy more. I’m planning on going to Portugal, cheaper, and friendly and I do speak Portuguese on top of everything. And the best thing is, my whole family from Brazil can come to visit me, since no one from my family were authorized to enter US soil to visit me ever.
Thank you, Mali, for your expressed introspection and questions for all of us to consider, "why are you moving?" Your story is so nice and quite similar to how I picture the life in Portugal. I am waiting for my visa application to be approved at the moment. I am moving to be closer to travel opportunities, for a simpler life filled with freshly grown food and less expensive necessities that really shouldn't be so expensive, like health insurance. The rest will be as it will be for I have fairly few expectations.
It's been interesting reading everyone's comments here and I'm grateful for the perspectives. I've read and heard about these things that are troublesome and I've also read and heard from expats about a life in Portugal that is sublime, one that greatly outweighs the downsides for those who are open to having that experience. Seems to me that the things that happen depend a lot (maybe more than we give credit) on who we are being in the world. Through the inevitable inconveniences and struggles of life, I continually learn to be more compassionate with myself and others. It gets a little repetitious hearing people complain about things that they can't do anything about. Perhaps our experience in Portugal or wherever we choose to live is our own responsibility, no matter what is going on at bureaucracy central or in the hood and perhaps a side effect will be a more satisfying experience than what we have anticipated? Just a thought....
I was lucky enough to live in Lisbon for 3 years, near the zoo. Yes, there are downsides - the cold in the winter being one of them. My apt was all marble and I had only 1 portable electric heater which was extremely expensive to use. However, I only had to use it for a couple of months a year (along with a dehumidier) and the rest of the year was wonderful. And I will say that Portuguese people are very private with strangers but if you are able to make 1 or 2 friends, then you are in because they will then include you and you'll meet their friends who will include you and so forth. I made a couple of really good friends who I still keep in touch with and visit whenever I go back to Portugal which is often. And trying to speak their language goes a long way as in any country. We wouldn't like it if a Portuguese person came to the US and expected us to speak their language.
I appreciate the article as well as the comments. Regarding the inexpensive life in Portugal, it surely is very cheap for the Californians who commented, but what would be the comparison to cheaper areas of the US? One concern that I have is the exchange rate between the dollar and the euro. It seems that if your pension and income is coming into Portugal from the US, you'd automatically be paying 17-20% more for an apartment, food, etc. Also, if they are taxing you at 10%, that makes rent & food even more expensive. So, perhaps one might tack on maybe 30% to euro prices if your income is in dollars. If you become a permanent resident/citizen, your tax rates would climb. I may be thinking incorrectly here, but could somebody advise me as to whether or not I am on the right track with my analysis?
I also have a concern about the government of Portugal changing rules for foreigners. I read that in Ireland, there were Americans who had been living in smaller towns and cities for years with no problems. But then the Irish government raised the yearly income requirement significantly. I read that these expat Americans collected petitions from Irish neighbors attesting to their good character, to no avail. The expats, after becoming accustomed to prices and life in Ireland, had to leave. So, in my mind's eye, I can visualize the Portuguese government periodically increasing income requirements and taxation in order to attract wealthier expats. This would reduce the numbers of expats but still produce income for the country. Am I thinking straight here?
It would seem that a flood of expats who are driving up prices for the Portuguese people would eventually cause much resentment among locals, thus presenting expats with an increasingly hostile environment. Does this thinking seem plausible? I read where this had happened in Cyprus. I have read that this is happening in Boise, Idaho against the Californians who are flocking there and driving up real estate prices.
Finally, I look at the various "Places Rated" annual surveys in the US. Other people look at them too. Everybody flocks to these places. Soon, they disappear from the "Best" lists. Could this not be the same with a place like Portugal? Everybody from everywhere flocks there. The virus ends--everybody is in a rush to travel. Americans bail in droves seeking lower prices and safety. Then Portugal is no longer appealing and it's on to the next undiscovered "hot spot" in a never-ending cycle of boom and bust. I am in a part of the US where huge apartment and housing complexes have mushroomed in the past three years. Everybody is moving here. People from very expensive states have poured in. They have the bucks to pay astronomical rents. The local people like me are getting priced out of our homes. It's not fun, and it can't be fun for the Portuguese people.
Thanks for any comments that you can supply. I may be all wrong with these gloom and doom scenarios. If so, please set me straight.
My husband and I are from California. He was born in Portugal but lived in UK from age 9 and then to US when 40ish. Yearly we return to Portugal to a home we’ve had there since 1999. My husband has negative feelings about permanently retiring there(which I would like to) due to the way the Portuguese government treats their own people while they bend over backwards to make it easier for foreigners with $$ to buy properties instead of helping their own people by giving better pay for jobs....etc....well I could go on but I wanted to give my perspective as an “estrangeiro” that longs to return to Portugal despite the points made in the article above that in my opinion are only somewhat true. I have learned enough Portuguese to survive on my own there if I had to. I have found my neighbors very friendly and helpful with little effort. (We are between Seixal and Setúbal). There are no estrangeiros near us just locals. When I go to the local market the bread lady doesn’t let me have my food until I say my sentences 100% correct. I look forward to this always and will hopefully be at the level where I can ask how her family is,...etc. upon returning this year. I want to be one of the velhas at the local cafe talking about the crazy thing my husband did the day before or what cafe makes the best Sunday cozido. It takes effort to go out of your comfort zone but I have found it to be well worth it. Annoyances, yes......We have been doing some remodeling on the old house and what would take 6 months in US is now on year 3 but partially because we can’t be there permanently throughout the process and the other part bureaucracy. But going into it we expected this and so that is how things are there and negatives need to be weighed with positives. It took my husband 1 year to get his name correct on some of his paperwork at the dreaded “Finanças.” It was only a matter of one government office spelling his first name with a z and another office spelling it with an s......I recommend for anyone on the fence to rent a place there for a year and actually LIVE not vacation. Carry out your daily tasks like you would any non vacation day. Use the time to figure out legal things you need to know. Do your research to see if life there is for you. LEARN PORTUGUESE! It will have its rewards! Locals know it is not an easy language and will respect you for trying to learn it! I have found that AFPOP has contacts that can give you much info about healthcare and other life necessities. I have found that businesses can be helpful if you go in knowing that friendly conversation sometimes goes further than a fast transaction. Expect that if you ask for directions one local may need to go to the local cafe to get another’s opinion of the said directions. It is a different manner of the day in Portugal. Most people are not in a hurry (unless they are in cars which I will leave out of this conversation).:)For me, the quality of life is much better than where I live in California (I do like California). The people in general are warmer and more caring in Portugal in my experience. The dog thing mentioned above is beginning to be worked out but yes it will take some time. I haven’t found smoking a big issue in most places any longer. Well those are my opinions and I hope they have been somewhat useful. Oh another thing I think some mentioned is that if you are depending on your income from US currency you will be a slave to the dollar euro exchange rate and need to take that into consideration. Keep in mind that Portugal is enslaved to the EU so many “rules” will continued to be imposed from that relationship. Good luck to all of you in your quest to enjoy your lives!
Hi, after 10 years here this is what i learned.
Portugal is a great place to retIire and a terrible place to do anything.
If you find a perfect house to buy or rent , live in it and enjoy it and do nothing other than shopping and leisure, it is Paradise.
If you try to do anything with officials or so called professionals, lawyers,Police,architects,government officials, builders then you might as burn all of your money to stop them stealing it and jump off a cliff to end the misery.
i will add courts and bank financial advisors as things to avoid at all costs, banks have only 1 interest, theirs not yours and the legal sysytem here is so hopeless that all it does is cause stress , take endless time and cost thousands
Hey everyone. I'm reading these posts with much interest and as a US citizen who lived abroad (Greece) and who is considering going back as a semi-retired person. Many of us are experiencing a very sorry state of affairs where we don't believe we have enough retirement savings to live comfortably in our later years in our home countries...and are therefore seeking cheaper ways to live abroad. Others are seeking ways to have a more "comfortable" way of life while earning as digital nomads, etc. So, you know, let's be real. Countries like Spain and Portugal and Greece seem attractive because the cost of living appears lower. But if you've never lived abroad and are coming from highly organized countries like the US or the UK, you're in for some culture shock. A country that's offering a golden visa is undertaking a form of a get-rich-quick scheme. If you need to earn an income, what does a residence permit get you without a work permit? When taxes are high or the exchange rate is unfavorable, is it economical to move there? If your ideal social or retirement scenario is having lots of free time in a beautiful place surrounded by new friends, what would you think if you knew that the culture you were moving into is hostile or suspicious of foreigners or strangers? If the culture you're moving to is conservative or closed, meaning people are born into a community, stay there all their lives, marry there and die there--where will you fit in as a stranger? Living abroad away from your family can be vastly lonely and alienating, especially if the language is difficult to learn (hello Portugal and Greece). How much will it cost you to travel back and forth to see your loved ones? If you encounter health problems as you age but you don't understand the language, how will you determine whether the health system is up to your standards? If you don't understand the language although "everyone speaks English", what will it feel like to be out and about and yet not understand what anyone around you is saying when you are not forcing locals to speak your native language? I moved to Greece in my mid-30s with an infant child and had another baby while we lived there. I was so lucky to have arrived during this time because the culture has such reverence for children--which is to say, everywhere I went I got attention for having children (not for being the interesting person that I was, ha!). But in parks and playgrounds I met (mostly nannies) but moms. And this helped somewhat with integration. But it was so clear that I was a stranger and that they expected me to leave eventually, which I did. If you're middle-aged, or older, are you ready to have mostly expat friends? Are you ready to be treated badly at the post office or grocery store? Are you ready not to understand why so much of life around you seems disorganized or chaotic? Are you ready to spend five years of your life integrating? When you live in a country whose first focus is family and local friends, and you come from a country where people abandon each other for business opportunities or a chance to live in a prime location, are you ready not to be trusted because your values are out of sync? Yes, the food is phenomenal, the housing is cheaper, you can hop a flight to Paris or whatever, but will you be able to have a sense of humor about the status of women or immigrants, or a lack of entrepreneurship, or the treatment of animals (since I'm reading a lot about that)? Most of us are the most flexible as young people but moving between cultures as retirees can require a kind of blindness. I'm saying this as someone who's payed her dues and loves her adopted country. But I'm not sure how I would have fared if I'd taken this on in my 60s or later.
That has to be the most open, honest and accurate views of moving abroad! Thanks for sharing.
Very positive and enlightening! Thank you
Anybody who speaks Spanish can learn Portuguese pretty easily. I speak Spanish (as my second language) and learned fluent Portuguese in 9 months. Never took a grammar class or anything. I applied a lot of the grammatical conjugations from Spanish. But, I love languages, am a language person and grew up with family members who spoke 3 languages.
that applies everywhere from my experience!
banks and lawyers are there first and foremost to make money for themselves. you could be anywhere in the world and likely would experience the same. try to find a reasonably priced lawyer!! I can give you a whole list of lawyers that charge minimum 10 $ per MINUTE. with globalization the banking and legal systems have also become globalized. big names that you find throughout the world.
These are modern day highway robbers from what i can make out. and they are not limited to portugal.but dealing with all this in a foreign language would probably drive me to despair.
We did 3 years in France. Loved France, hated the French (as a whole!). Unfriendly, arrogant, very introverted with strangers, totally rude and unhelpful if you are learning the language. We moved to Portugal and they are so friendly, it's the opposite end of the spectrum. We had a stranger pay our water bill because they wouldn't accept our foreign bank card. She just gave us her card and said pop in with the money sometime. 🙂
Where do you live? Sorry to hear about the influx problem. I understand the frustration of Boiseites because the Californians probably won't change their voting habits which will turn Idaho into the Cali they left behind. And then where is the next place leftie voters will move to and lay waste to? The same thing when new yorkers from Long Island move south. The only thing keeping Florida red are the Cubans.
I'm sure this doesn't apply to you personally, but so many move from Cali to Texas, Idaho, etc, and like locusts, vote as a typical leftie Cali voter such that Texas will next become unlivable and like a parasite whose host has died, they will need to move again.
Thanks for the link to BBC article. Sad to hear about that. It's now been about half a year now since I wrote this comment about the noise problem. Absolutely nothing has changed unfortunately. Tried talking to my neighbors about their barking dogs and that only brings momentary relief (if I'm lucky). The GRN (police) do nothing. You are entitled to make a noise complaint if it is occurring from 11pm to 7am. But nothing ever comes of it. I've realized that I just have to accept it. Or move somewhere where I do t have neighbors. Wish there was something more I could do...
Right wing trolls have infested this website....
haha you can't get away
How long did it take to get approval for the NHR after the biometrics?
I'm in the process of the getting the NHR (purchased a qualified home) and just got my application validated, which took 3 months. I have to go to portugal to get my thumb print and then wait to get "approved", the process is tedious.
Hey Todd, if I move to Portugal this year, I am happy to connect 🙂 Best wishes, Vicky
Hello there! I really enjoy this website and I went through a lot of comments and I find them very valuable. I might be a bit of a different case than most here and I am still wondering if Portugal should be for me the next country to start a new life in. I am single, 45 and I am used to moving around and living in different cultures and cities. I lived in Germany, Israel and the UK so far. My roots are Romanian though, but never lived in Romania. I would call myself a full blown European 🙂 / I was in Lisbon already twice, in total for 5 weeks and I absolutely loved it but that's already 8/9 years ago so I imagine quite a lot changed since then. After all my experiences of living in so many cultures I figured out what is the most important and valuable thing to me when moving abroad: Friendly people, that you can make easily friends with. Which gets a taller order the older you get unfortunately. I was surprised to read here a lot that its not easy to make friends in Portugal, but I wonder where in the world it is actually when you are an expat? Though I believe there are better and worse options and I always thought Portugal is for sure better, than Germany or even maybe UK. I generally look for warm hearted, decent, kind, loyal, welcoming and caring people. So I wonder if Portuguese people could be that? That is my main question or concern. After that comes: Good healthcare; not too much corruption - yes I am convinced the corruption is worse than in Germany or UK, but I cannot imagine, it's worse than Israel. I wonder how Spain does in that department though?; not much hostility towards foreigners - say what you want, but Portugal is one of the few European countries that doesn't seem to have a right wing or populist movement or party, which is for me a big positive!; work options - I know this is a big problem in Portugal and I am not sure how to solve this, this is for me the biggest concern to be honest, but not sure if Spain would be so much better and they get more and more right wing and to me Spanish people are also too dramatic and loud :D; being a democratic country - it's not as good as Germany and UK, but its better than Israel! and last but not least being a country where it is okay to be a woman - I don't expect it to be as good as Germany or UK, but I hope it's not too bad. // Generally I was thinking of Portugal, Spain or Ireland. But if I compare Spain to Portugal I slightly prefer Portugal for the reasons I mentioned already and in Ireland I am afraid it would be even harder to make friends - that is my main concern, otherwise I would maybe try Ireland. Also because my roots are Romanian I might feel more at home in Portugal than Ireland. So I know this is very specific and I don't know if anyone can relate to what I wrote here, however if anyone feels giving some feedback I would highly appreciate it 🙂 Thank you so much and sorry for the long post 😀 !! Stay safe and healthy!
I like that attitude 🙂 - Simplicity is Zen 🙂
Maybe we can connect when I come to live there, as I am interested in that topic being an assertive woman myself 😀 !!
Hi Vicky,
Here are some bullet points to answer your questions.
I've lived in Ireland, the UK, Germany, and Spain and I think the reasons for moving to somewhere like Ireland or Germany are probably different to Spain or Portugal. Ireland and Germany are better in terms of job opportunities, healthcare (some would disagree, I'm sure), and public services, but it comes with a higher cost of living.
Spain and Portugal offer a better quality of life in terms of weather, food, etc but things aren't as efficient and are harder to live in if you aren't retired or have some form of income.
I would start by deciding whether I want to live in the North of Europe or the South of Europe and then narrow it down.
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Hey James,
Thank you so much for your reply and your valuable input!
I am clear, I don't want to stay in Germany, it's just not my culture, although I was born and raised here. If I would think that it is easy to make friends in Ireland I would first try it there, but I think its easier to make friends in Portugal, correct me if I am wrong 🙂
It's shocking to hear that also Portugal has now a right wing party ;( // For me the most important thing is, where I could find a community that let's me in. So it has less to do with weather or food, but more with how welcoming people are and I mean by that inviting you to their gatherings etc. Do you think it's easier to be welcomed in Portugal than Ireland? // and then yes, the job situation would need to be sorted out upfront, especially for Portugal. What made you leave Spain and now living in Portugal 🙂 ? Thank you so much for your help! Best wishes, Vicky
Will you stop bloviating on about lefties ffs. Most of europe has historically struggled with extremes on both sides of the spectrum (mostly right) and you come in with this tone-deaf usa-centric nonsense.
Read the room. Wind your neck in.
Thank you for your perspective. My family is American living as expats in Switzerland for the past 7 years and 5 years in London before here. Leaning German is hard and all my friends are expats. Well, one Swiss. We're researching Portugal for semi-retirement and to see if I can get a Portuguese Passport as my grandmother was born in San Miguel, Azores. My kids e still school-aged though so I found your comment helpful, as I only dream of the weather, the ocean, sustainable communities popping up, and growing my own food! Thanks for the eye-opener.
You're right. I live in Switzerland as an expat and the Portuguese here are like the Polish in England. Here for jobs - hard workers, reliable...they go back to their bigger families in Portugal over holidays and send $ home. I should have asked my housekeepers and massage therapist to teach me Portuguese rather than all my German lessons so I could retire in my "fatherland. My paternal grandparents were born in the Azores. Longing to return.
Hi Vicky,
I grew up in Ireland but lived in Portugal as an adult. I don't think I can properly compare the two in terms of making friends as making friends as a child is easier.
My gut feeling, though, is that making friends would be easier in Ireland. People are definitely friendlier with strangers in Ireland, but since I haven't lived there as an adult I can't really say if that translates into friendships. Portuguese people tend to be more reserved so making Portuguese friends can take a while. Of course, there are large international communities in parts of the country which can fill this gap while you work on those relationships.
Of course, plenty of people move to Portugal and make friends, whether local or international. I don't think it's impossible in either, but maybe slightly harder in Portugal.
As for Spain VS Portugal, it was a tough choice and Spain had a lot of pros, however, I liked Lisbon as a city more than a lot of the cities I lived in in Spain (Seville and Valencia). I couldn't afford to live in Madrid or Barcelona, but maybe if I could I would have been won over by them. Also, and I know you're not so concerned about the food, but I think the food is better in Portugal.
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This has been immensely helpful, so thank you all for the real experiences and issues. I’ve only read some very “surface friendly” negatives about PT and I think it’s super important to get a real picture.
We’re looking to move in about 5-6 years, and we will begin to travel to visit places on our list this fall. My family is composed of two daughters, my husband, my two dogs, and myself. By the time we move my eldest will be an adult (she wants to go to school in France so she’ll come with us wherever we choose) and my youngest a young teenager.
We’re not independently wealthy, though we will have a good nest egg we won’t be buying in with the Golden Visa. I’ll still freelance and my husband will by then as well. We assume an income of $3-6,000 each month on top of our savings.
I can’t abide by noise, I’m extremely sensitive to it so it’s disheartening to hear so many stories of the barking dogs & yelling. I see not all have this problem, so maybe we will continue to look as Lisbon - but we we aren’t city dwellers by nature and had hoped to look into smaller towns.
The other concern is that we will need access to good emergency medical care. I have a brain tumor, and it may stay forever and not be a problem. .Or - - perhaps I’ll need emergency surgery. (How fun.) I’m not going to live my life a slave to it & fear though and I want to be able to experience life as an adventure.
We are not world travelers, I just want to shake the narrative we’re living out as typical Midwestern Americans. I hate the politics in America, the divide and the ugliness - and I hate the Iowa winters too. We would love an area which had better weather and more to do outside. Bonus is access to cool stuff to see as we love history & art. People are ugly or not all over the world, but I’d love to be somewhere where there wasn’t such a hateful divide.
Should I still visit Lisbon this fall? Will it hit our checklists? If not, I would love advice on where to look into.
Hi Vickey, I would recommend Itrland if you want a good friendly living. Maybe try Galway to start as there could be a need for you languages. I am Irish but have lived outside Ireland for 30 years & my wife is not Irish but she really loved & was more than accepted by the locals. Good Luck!
I agree. I am a 64 year old woman thinking of moving to the EU for CV the health care, etc. Definitely not jumping ship...concern is how to have a decent life on $1,200/mth Social Security. Might as well stay in NYC.
Hi Brooklyn,
This is the downsides of Portugal. There are upsides too!
I do think you should still visit Lisbon although I would focus more on the outskirts if you're not city people. Lisbon isn't a big city, but it's still a city and you can get more space outside of it.
As for your income, it does depend on your lifestyle.
Noise isn't an issue in every property and I think it's more of an issue in apartments than houses.
Emergency medical care is good, but it is worth researching hospitals to make sure you're close to good care.
Hopefully some others will chime in with their thoughts too.
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Hi Lauren,
It's definitely possible to live on this amount, however, I think you need to consider a few things.
* Healthcare is free or thereabouts but not private healthcare obviously.
* Your biggest cost will be accommodation. If you're buying a property and have $1200 left over, that's plenty. If $1200 has to include rent as well, it will mean living in more rural parts of Portugal or smaller towns.
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There are a number of smaller places, that are generally free of bigger cities. Coimbra, Aveiro, Santeram, Caldas da Rainha all north of Lisbon. South of Lisbon there is Setubal. We are moving in exactly 2 months to retire in a old beach town. We’ve visited Portugal, every inch except the northeast corner, for the past 25 years, every year. We finally decided where and bought a house last February just as the virus began to be felt. This is the first time we are able to return and we encountered the Portuguese bureaucracy, not a bad as expect, only took 2 months in the middle of a pandemic, with half the time dealing with US bureaucracy. Portugal is a wonderful country with wonderful people who go way out of their way to help a foreign traveler who doesn’t speak their language. The food is magnificent especially seafood. At least pay it a visit. Spend a few days in Lisbon, it’s a gem of a city. But go into the country, the central region is my favorite for too many reasons to list.
I am Asian.
I want to immigrate to Portugal next year. I want to know if my daughter can study in French universities by having Portuguese residence?
You are spot on in your assessment of Portuguese living conditions. I have been living here for 2 years in the countryside. and the indifferent passive attitude of the people drives me crazy. Apart from widespread obesity especiallt the women, I am permanently irritated by careless drivers. unreliable plumbers or carpwenters, noisy yelling kids and complete indifference to your neighbors. On the other hand you have beautiful walks in the natural beauty and clean air, mild climate etc. But I am beginning to miss something and maybe also due to COVID I will come to the conclusion that I have a problem with Portuguese mentality and business conduct.
Just to make you aware that the Spanish are much more dynamic and open than the Portuguese. However the crime rate in Portugal is much lower and this is really enjoyable compared to countries like Italy which is a chaotic disaster!
One Portuguese told me people were behaving like this because they earn so little and the expats have so much money! Showa you their unacceptable attitude!
I couldnt agree more. Online orders are prepay only. so you are charged immediately and sometimes have to wait weeks for your delivery. In germany you pay via bank transfer within 14 days of receipt of the goods ordered. From that perspective, Portugal is a 3rd worlsd country., but as financial statistics show, Portuguese private debt and associated default rates are one of the highest in the world, hence their banking crises in 2012 and the dismal state of Portuguese banks which are either stayte owned like Caixa Geral or almost bankrupt loke Novo Banco. A complete disaster this economy. No wonder that Portuguese are leaving in doves for Switzerland Luxembourg, France and the US!
I have lived in Portugal for a year and a half now and one thing I would like to share with anyone thinking of moving her is the complete lack of service you will encounter when trying to deal with Portuguese social services. I'm mostly referring to the conservatories (civil registries), SEF and pretty much any other social service. The simple fact is that none of these agencies answer their phones. Why even have a phone number if you're not going to answer it??? Same goes for email. They never respond. When you try to go to one of these places in person to get something done they refuse to help you and simply tell you to call and make an appointment. Haha, ok, but you need to answer the freaking phones! So be warned!
James,
My list is very similar to Vicky's (so I won't repeat what she said 🙂 ) but with a few additions:
I'm from Brooklyn, NY - not Manhattan (which everyone thinks of when they think of NYC) but it is part of NYC and it certainly a large population. From what I hear about Lisbon, it sounds similar in size to Brooklyn alone. I could probably live someplace slightly smaller, but not too small, and I want to be near a transportation hub, which is why I'm leaning towards the Lisbon area. I'm also single, so I don't want to go into too small a town. I speak Spanish fairly well, and believe it or not I actually studied Portuguese when I was in college (brazilian) so although I know continental Portuguese sounds different I'm at least starting from a place that is closer than not knowing Portuguese at all.
My neighborhood in Brooklyn has cafes, a museum, a large park and a separate botanic garden, and the main branch of the library, as well as the "downtown" shopping area, a major transportation hub, a weekly farmers market, and a sports arena - all within a mile of my flat. I could be further away from some of those things, but I love the cafe culture and being near the park and the farmers market. What do you think might work for me? Oh, one more thing - I am a multiethnic person with relatively light skin but definitely not white. I have been taken for Latina or North African/Middle Eastern in NYC.
Hi Refazenda,
It does sound like Lisbon might be the best bet for you. Budget permitting, I think a neighbourhood like Principe Real or Estrela (or thereabouts) would give you what you're looking for in terms of gardens and good café culture. The gardens will probably be smaller in scale, but I think you'll find a lot of things smaller in Lisbon.
As for multiculturalism, Lisbon probably won't be as multicultural as New York but it does have a lot of people from Brazil as well as the other former Portuguese colonies. Hopefully, people will assume you're from Brazil and then you'll get a lot of opportunities to practice your Portuguese!
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Hi Refazenda,
It does sound like Lisbon might be the best bet for you. Budget permitting, I think a neighbourhood like Principe Real or Estrela (or thereabouts) would give you what you're looking for in terms of gardens and good café culture. The gardens will probably be smaller in scale, but I think you'll find a lot of things smaller in Lisbon.
As for multiculturalism, Lisbon probably won't be as multicultural as New York but it does have a lot of people from Brazil as well as the other former Portuguese colonies. Hopefully, people will assume you're from Brazil and then you'll get a lot of opportunities to practice your Portuguese!
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They probably will assume I'm Brazilian, and since I studied Brazilian Portuguese and have that accent I might be forgiven for it 🙂
Any nice neighborhoods that are not quite as "upscale" that I might enjoy?
If you are looking For friendly people, easy integration go to Ireland . I am Polish living in Ireland. Irish people are extremly friendly .
Hi Brooklyn.
I'm also an American looking to move to Portugal. Let me know if you make it there. I'm applying for my D7 Visa in December 2021 and hope to move there by May 2022.
Completely agree with the political climate here. Toxic.
Well said and I appreciate that you took the time to write it.
I also hate the ugliness that took over the US and has not died down even with a new administration. I already have a home in Baja Mexico but it has not felt safe enough lately. So I researched the most peaceful countries and the safest countries in the world. Iceland (brrrr) was #1, New Zealand (so far!) is #2 and Portugal is #3. Most of issues mentioned here (especially the cold interiors of the houses and the slow everything and the noise) are also part of life in Mexico and they did not pose a huge problem for me, a single woman pushing 60. I plan to visit Portugal as soon as I get vaccinated. You can work around the problems. In Baja I found a home built to American standards. It was a manufactured house and I paid someone to do the roof and siding to convert it to a stick-built home. I pay people to do things I don't wish to do like hassle with the bureaucracy. I have ex-pat friends but also a group that studies Spanish at a bar. People are cool if you make the attempt to learn the language. I think you should check out Portugal for yourself. I certainly intend to.
My thought as well. Stay out of the weeds and on-topic please.
Oh wow. That would be a deal-killer for me because I work online. Is there anywhere in Portugal with reliable internet?
You can get fiber in a lot of towns and cities. Vodafone tends to be the most recommended network.
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It's due an update, but I did write an article about Lisbon neighbourhoods before: https://www.portugalist.com/lisbon-neighbourhoods/
A few neighbourhoods I love include Alcântara, Estrela, Restelo, and Campo de Ourique. They all fall into the upscale category, though.
Other neighbourhoods I've considered before include Ajuda, Alameda, Marvila, and across the water in Almada.
The metro line is good, so if you're near a metro stop you can get around the city pretty easily.
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Forget about dentists in Portugal or any other medical services. Don't rely on any services in Portugal. You have money to spend, but there are no decent goods or services to match your income. You will keep cash, lots of it without being able to spend it on quality.
Here's one example: If Portuguese airlines can turn off the air supply through the above-seat air nozzles for the entire trans Atlantic flight and ignore your cries for a glass of water what does that tell you about your future life there? They not only respond their emails and phones. It is much worse than that. You will be treated differently as a foreigner. The locals will be served first, at all times, even if you came in first.
Exactly! It’s more than that. It’s like Africa in the 1980s. The mail now takes 2 months from Lisbon to the islands! And the Portuguese do not care to do work even if they don’t have the money to live on! Eastern Europe now seems like a paradise to compare to Portugal. And don’t start me on those NASTY POWER CUTS! They cut power off for entire hour during the most busy hours! Usually during working day or right after work when people return home… BOOM, power cut and you can’t watch TV, or cook etc. for an entire hour. Unannounced! This is in their blood, it is called PUNISHMENT. Just don’t know why and what they punish with this nasty behaviour. They also cut water supply off at the most inconvenient hours: before sleep or during cooking hours, but never at night when people sleep. Always during most busy hours! And the people are not really friendly as some wrote. They are rather passively nasty and rude. Some are friendly but for absolutely different reasons, mostly for selfish reasons. Very self-centered nation, never help on the road, just like France or Spain. There are always exceptions, but one has to wait a long time for those. And forget about if you need something to be done. They will never place you in a waiting line, no carpenter or other workman will ever hand you a number, so you can know what to expect. You can wait for years and they will never show up. You can go crazy and move out of the country. That’s how “friendly” they are. And don’t start me on the percentage of crooks and thieves….
I did not pay high rents, I always bargained, also for respect to the local people, to not raise their rents and prices. I was charged more than the locals, but I never made it easy for them to charge me more. As the result prices and rents did not go up for the locals. Be like that, do not let your money go easy without a "fight". Soon after they will respect you more as the result.
In the Azores you will need no heater year round, unless you like to walk around your house in underwear and sit still for hours. Otherwise dress with a sweater, double pants, warm socks and no need for heating ever, since it is 60s through 80s year round and some days 50s.
I'll take Houston any day for Portugal, but you forgot to mention the total disregard of our lungs by the neighbors. They burn their trash in their owens including toxic plastic and much more toxic chemicals, instead of recycling it, feed it to pigs, then eat the pork, then they get all kinds of cancers and die young from it and come to comfort themselves to their neighbors yard. They throw trash into neighbor yard while the recycling dumpsters are just several feet away.
Downtown Lisbon perhaps, in the luxury accomodations such as €3000+ per month for 1 bedroom? Although I seriously doubt it. Not only internet is unreliable. Everything is unreliable. Read all of my posts on here to get the entire picture of this beautiful and wonderful country.
Vodaphone is a joke... and fiber in Portugal is rather a joke, even worse than DSL. When your internet is down they make sure you're down by doing a harakiri, the power cut for an hour, unannounced.
Very true, second that.
Just some people, not all, of course.
A friend told me he owns a house in the Azores, but he does not live there anymore, so his house was robbed multiple times. The thieves (neighbours) took everything out of the house, then they also took the doors, the windows, even the balcony tiles were ripped off..... Only the cement carcass remains... sad view.... I saw the photos.
The local electric power company just did a very long power cut in good weather for 10 whole hours! First they cut power yesterday at 18:00 H (6 PM) after people returned from work and kept it off for nearly an hour! I am sure everyone was pissed being unable to do things after work and it was a Friday night! To add insult to injury the already downed corpse of Friday Night was killed by another rude unannounced (they never announce power cuts though) power cut at 21 H (9 PM) that lasted until 7:30 AM! Whole 10 hours! Add all together and you get 11 hours of absence of power within 24 hours... Just like in the deep deep Africa that it is. Join the African Union. Guess what? The selfish workers cut power off and probably got drunk and left home for a good night's sleep, those bastards. They always cut power at the most inconvenient busy times of the day for the people. Always! And never apologise nor pick up the phone! I just called them in the morning and they dropped the phone down like a HOT potato in 2 seconds! Just like in a good old Third World country that this place used to be, and in many ways still is. Talking about punishment mentality! Don't come here to get a job, but also don't retire here or you will end up with a heart attack.
Thanks to your post we have decided to not invest 17 billion euros into the Portuguese construction and manufacturing industries.
Women in Portugal prefer men to be 20 years younger than themselves. A Mother's Syndrome? Look at the Macron, the French trend setter.
Reminds me of Cherokee, NC Indien Reservation where all Indien crafts, souvenirs and clothes are made in Mexico.
You can rich Portugal, marry a Portugirl and rich off her, she pay you €200/month to be her sugarboy and then you can love to leave Portugal forever to never return. Money! Money! Money!
The Azores get up to 25C some days 26-27C and that's it. Never above 29C. And those are highs. Usually 17C to 24C during summer months of June through October.
Out of topic.
Myself and my wife were on the cusp (after investing an enormous amount of time looking) of putting an offer in on a rural property in central Portugal. Like a lot of people on here we were shocked but very grateful to you for shedding light on both sides of the coin. We were very much looking forward to more time in Portugal, but after talking with the parents of somebody that we met at a family get together. They had decided to do the exact same thing as us and bought rurally, while they were still (semi) working and could only manage to use their property for 90 days at a time, but were looking to retire there as soon as possible. Unfortunately, their house was broken into on a regular basis in the times that they were not there.
They had a nice alarm fitted that notified the local police station if breached, but nobody was ever caught.
Apparently, removing roof tiles to gain access is very common, so metal doors and big locks don't count for much.
We were dismayed to hear this as we were not quite ready to fully retire there yet either. We still think (hope) that we will move to Portugal, but now think that we should wait until we can go on a full time basis. Although the barking dogs will definitely be the greatest challenge for us, (We were hoping for the peace and quiet of the countryside)
followed by the "no-can-do" mentality. The rest of it shouldn't really affect us unless we let it. After all we are going there to learn to slow down.
Curious to know if anybody else here has had issues in this dept.
Well actually l am dealing with SEF now as l need an extension because l want to apply for a visa and have always received first an acknowledgement that they`ve received my email followed a few days later with a reply and with a phone number included. l`ve also rung them and most of them speak english so l, or a couple of friends are glad to say there were no problems dealing with them but they are a bit slow as things have been put back till next month!
Have you googled it yet? There are plenty of websites to look at, also maybe look on government sites in France , l`m sure you`ll find plenty of helpful information on them but my personal opinion is that it would be possible as both countries are in the EU, not sure about cost etc.lf your daughter speaks fluent german then university education is free or at very low cost, around 700 euros a year.
l have visited Faro and Olhao in the Algarve,and although l liked the layout of the town in Olhao better and the waterfront etc it is unfortunately full of barking dogs so l couldn`t recommend it.
Far nicer in my opinion is Tavira, just a 25 minute train ride away from Olhao, admittedly l`m not as fond of the layout in the town centre compared to Olhao, but it does have a beautiful river and many bridges going over, the best known is the Roman bridge in the town square. There are also lovely riverside walk and cycle paths along the river too, as well as plenty of countryside all around, plus the weather is better in the Algarve and there are definitely a lot less barking dogs around, much less than in Olhao
l would say that lreland, and also Scotland, Wales and most of England, is on the whole friendlier and less reserved than Portugal so easier to make friends. Plus the fact that you speak fluent english helps, although obviously if you speak fluent portugues that would be a big help too. !
l think also in Germany there are friendly and not so friendly places, l have found Darmstadt, near Frankfurt to be a very friendly place and a lovely town to visit or settle in, also Hamburg or some other areas of Northern Germany as well as areas in the Ruhr Gebiet ie, Hagen, have a strong community spirit due a lot to the industries in the past like the Haspe steelworks, they have gone now but the spirit still survives.
The UK is probably one of the easiest places for making friends. ln the UK it`s easy to be called a friend, even if you don`t know them that well whereas in Germany, as you know because you grew up there, there is a clear distinction between a freund, many are formed during childhood, and a bekannten, ein aquaintance !
ln a way l prefer the latter, at least you know where you stand, and it`s easy in the uk, with your so called new " friend" that you don`t really know very well, to then fall out over any disagreement and suddenly you`re not friends anymore ! Germans take more time to get to know you so that when you`re friends it most likely will last.
Lastly, but not least, as your roots are Romanian why not also consider at least spending some time there and really getting to know your past, that could be very revealing to you and you might even find you prefer that to any of the others !
::chuckles:: just moved in July -- it's where my family began in this country! -- but looking at Portugal with my husband and newborn because (a) it seems a bit nutty to place oneself right smack dab in the path of hurricane alley. With climate change and man-made interventions from the past, the Louisiana Gulf Coast is losing an acre of land per hour. (B) it seems like the Klan is rising again. le sigh.
Hallo,
Really don`t know what you mean by "neighbours are extremely nosy, can enter your property for any reason or no reason without asking you and take anything they want from it. " ??
l mean, if l rent an appartment or house, or own it then it is ME who decides who comes in and when l go out l lock my doors and windows so l don`t understand your view about this at all, please explain more fully.
UAU! This article brings back memories. I am Portuguese women that have lived in the UK for the last 18 years. I have, very often played with the idea of returning to Portugal. The mentality was what always made me think that I would live my adult life in a more easy-going(yes because easy going and slow paced life are 2 different things in my eyes) and open-minded society. These were my thoughts in the 90's... Changing our ways as Portuguese is a difficult thing as it is in any culture and not knowing how it is like in other countries just makes it all progress, change, etc, very sluggish.
My truth is that I absolutely love my country and I do love UK and have the luxury of being a portuguese that had long contact with a culture that approaches life in a very different way.
I think that the more expats live in Portugal, the richer Portugal becomes. Seeing the negative side to everything is a very treasured Portuguese trait, I remember family gatherings on weekends! If you get the opportunity, is hilarious. My family had this little competition of who finds more faults with a: footbal (number one subject), politics or health conditions. We are so passionate and go to great lenghts of argumentation to make a point - as you can see by the lenght of this text!
But the real problem was solutions were never discussed, at least practical ones, every thought seamed to end up as "I would show them..." "We should get rid of ..." and you carry on 2 hours of lunch putting the wrongs to right, feeling angry with the country and with no clearer idea of how to change it. But this was in the 90's.
A lot has changed, now we don't have to take days off to sort go to social security cues just to find out that we need another form filling in... wait, maybe we still do but nowhere near how it used to be, trust me on this. Goverment has created online services now that simplify alot of the paperwork but is far from perfect.
I think the solution to improve Portugal's niggling issues might be "can doers", positive and pratical people from all over the world that really wants to live there to be part of it. You don't realise that your way of thinking change us. But we will still be loud, dramatic, and bad drivers in very general terms...
Portugal has a wealth of goodness and a lot to learn (I see it as a teanager rebelling but not practical).
Better check the rising politics in Portugal before moving, then.
Hi Vicky,
If community feel and friendship is important for you I would definitely say Ireland is friendlier to foreigners. I have family in Ireland and go there very often and can tell you that they were never discriminated against because they were emigrants.
Portugal really depends on where you will live. If you live in a younger community with not many social problems you might find it easy to integrate as most people will try to communicate and if you have a hobby you might find a group to blend in. Other option is to go regularly to your local cafe and say hi to everyone as soon as you come in, do this all the time and people will respond really well to it. If you get shy and don't talk you might be lucky to get a nosy friendly local starting conversation or, more likely, they will feel intimidated and think you might feel you are better than the locals - silly right (trust me we do have our insecurities 🙂 ). Ultimately you will find really friendly people in Ireland Portugal or Spain. In Spain you have more noise and partying though, if that is a point to consider.
Hi Vera!
This is really interesting! Thank you so much for sharing.
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Condolences for your loss (of sanity).
Bawooooo.... John
I would highly recommend a solid daily intake of fiber - very healthy especially for satisfying bowl movements 😀
Bill, paragraphs are your friend.
Hi Refezenda,
I'm also from Brooklyn, and lived in the same area as you. I live in SE Pennsylvania now and am planning a move to Portugal as a single woman.
Have you visited yet? I was there in 2016 and spent time in the Algarve as well as Lisbon and agree with James. Lisbon has a great art gallery with a garden, good public transportation and shops. I was planning a scouting trip last April, but pandemic. Hoping to reschedule soon. I studied Spanish in school and am now studying Portuguese. You have a great advantage in already knowing the language. Regards.
As someone thinking of moving abroad to retire (age 55) I can't praise your post enough, massively interesting, intuitive & informative, thank you
A word of warning, we have moved to rural Portugal some 10 years ago, and we are now trapped here, losing our life savings through being conned and our nievity, all the negatives mentioned are true, and worse, a lot worse, take advice from someone 'burned' and please re-think moving here, it is bad below the surface, go elsewhere and do propper 'on the ground' research and rent for a good amount of time, so you get the no BS, non-rose rinted spectacle view, good luck.
Can you explain?
Thank you. I had never thought of some of the things you brought up. We are retiring abroad aw well and looking for the right place
Read reviews of Azores Airlines on TripAdvisor. This is how unprofessional, ignorant, overcharging, dishonest and lazy most services are.
Neighbour is a thief, so we told him so directly into his face. In return he tried to burn our house down.
This is actually a reply to Brooklyn,
Check out Anjos, it's the hipster capital of Lisbon, at least on the "not upscale" side of things.
The country itself, outside of Porto and Lisboa, is mostly "countryside mentality" as it's mostly countryside and small towns.
Porto is smaller but more "alt" and "underground" than Lisboa (Lisboa would be House music where Porto is Drum n Bass, lol), but you have more variety in foreign foods and people in Lisboa.
Foreigner enclaves are in specific areas, typically caused by word-of-mouth "I'll move in near where my friends are" growth.
Residency, as in legally processed residency, will not be revoked suddenly on a whim. THAT you can count upon, as that's part and parcel to being an EU member nation, and while Portugal has it's own particularities, it's on the more relaxed side compared to Germany.
You will probably note that many folks deign to setup residency, and instead count upon being perpetual tourists.
This can backfire (witness Brexit deliberately ending freedom of movement, and the necessary reciprocity STILL not being enforced, but it's inevitable) and as in the case of your friends in Ireland.
There can always be cases in which residency applications are rejected. It's also quite a bureaucratic PITAS to make a residency application, requiring forms from ones home country and Apostille services and such, but in the end it's what is required to stay somewhere.
One certainly cannot compare it to the amazingly uphill US "Green Card" process (and lottery, literally.) and while xenophobia is as rampant in Europe as in the USA or UK, it's not given as much official legal cover as US or UK policy gives.
(remind me of the minimum income a foreign national needs to establish residency in the UK circa 2021, etc...)
Hello, We came here to Loule, Algarve, Portugal from Scandinavia in December 2020 for a month long Christmas vacation, and today we are still here. I and my husband we work online and our 3 kids are in distance learning, so all of as are online everyday and so far we have found out that Meo internet is better -a bit faster than Nos internet but we dont mind using Nos as well, so far both have been just perfect for online meetings for 5 people. During our stay we have found that Portugal is the loveliest place to live, most helpful and kind people you can find. They even help to carry groceries, the landlords -we have lived in 3 different houses so far -are the kindest people and we become friends even before we moved to their houses. They are willing to do extra anytime even without asking, improving things even without asking, offering help and cleaning, when my computer broke down the maintainance spent weekend to fix it and downloaded everything from hard drive so i was ready for work on Monday morning, we havent done much shopping because of the lockdown but as the stores opened up we got huge discounts and the owners even gave us some items for free as presents. We lived also in a countryside with most wonderful and smiling neighbours, maybe it is different up north, but we live in Algarve and we even have english radio here that gives nice overview of the daily news. People come to Algarve to retire, so english speaking people are everywhere and english is widly spoken, of course they lighten up if I, my husband and kids speak some portuguese we have learned so far but nobody expects us to be fluent. We have lived in many places in a world and we havent seen so kind and helpful people anywhere. And the winter is warmer than Scandinavian summer here in Algarve, and the ocean is as warm as the sea in Sweden during the summer, so our kids have been swimming in a ocean since we came here. People are healty and you can see joggers, runners and cyclers everywhere, the food is amazing and fruits and veggies taste and smell like they should be, and we even pick our oranges and lemons in the morning and we can smell the blossoms in a orange tree. After shopping groceries we are still amazed how little we payed. We can see at least 20 different birds in a garden, and sometimes some frogs and hedgehogs drop by. Life is perfect here!
Hello, We came here to Loule, Algarve, Portugal from Scandinavia in December 2020 for a month long Christmas vacation, and today we are still here. I and my husband we work online and our 3 kids are in distance learning, so all of as are online everyday. During our stay we have found that Portugal is the loveliest place to live, most helpful and kind people you can find. They even help to carry groceries, the landlords -we have lived in 3 different houses so far -are the kindest people and we become friends even before we moved to their houses. They are willing to do extra anytime even without asking, improving things even without asking, offering help and cleaning, when my computer broke down the maintainance spent weekend to fix it and downloaded everything from hard drive so i was ready for work on Monday morning, we havent done much shopping because of the lockdown but as the stores opened up we got huge discounts and the owners even gave us some items for free as presents. We lived also in a countryside with most wonderful and smiling neighbours, maybe it is different up north, but we live in Algarve and we even have english radio here that gives nice overview of the daily news. People come to Algarve to retire, so english speaking people are everywhere and english is widly spoken, of course they lighten up if I, my husband and kids speak some portuguese we have learned so far but nobody expects us to be fluent. We have lived in many places in a world and we havent seen so kind and helpful people anywhere. And the winter is warmer than Scandinavian summer here in Algarve, and the ocean is as warm as the sea in Sweden during the summer, so our kids have been swimming in a ocean since we came here. People are healty and you can see joggers, runners and cyclers everywhere, the food is amazing and fruits and veggies taste and smell like they should be, and we even pick our oranges and lemons in the morning and we can smell the blossoms in a orange tree. After shopping groceries we are still amazed how little we payed. We can see at least 20 different birds in a garden, and sometimes some frogs and hedgehogs drop by. we have been in Italy as well, but people hardly speak english there, of course Italy is Italy -you can't beat that, but we love to visit Italy but would not imagine living there. Strangly Portuguese people are the least temperament people -more like scandinavians, silent and happy, you hardly hear them. Life is perfect here!
Sorry to hear your situation John. I did the same thing, put all my eggs in one basket and bought there. of the seven countries in Europe I have lived in Portugal was the worst. I have my place for sale and I think it will be a good house/business for someone else but not for me. To much dishonesty at every level and other factors have told me to move on after five years here. I have some friends who wish to move here, and although I have tried to tell them the truth, they are blinded by the sunshine.
David, there are better, cheaper countries in Europe, even in southern Europe than Portugal. Do the research, look around, read the blogs and visit the others before you jump in at the deep end.
Hi Vicky,
As I was born in Ireland I may be a bit bias but I find the majority of the Irish welcoming and friendly with only a handful of grumps. In Portugal I find it the other way round, the majority grumps and a handful of friendly people, who are in fact exceptionally friendly. Coming to rural Portugal is like stepping back ten years. The bureaucracy is unbelievable and the Portuguese do not know what logic is. It all goes back to the Salazar regime that ended over forty years ago but attitudes have not changed. Everyone is still affraid of government officers and police. I have seen so many people move to Portugal and regret it within a year or so but because it takes so long to sell a house here they get depressed. My house has been for sale for two years and it has not sold yet and it has had major restoration. I have heard of houses for sale for twenty years with people trapped in a place they do not want to be for that length of time!
yes she will pay €600 a month for a rented decent house, that leaves her €600 a month to live on. Not enough.
They are correct. Reality is something grownups deal with.
Plenty of people do and it's not unusual for rent for be 50% of people's incomes.
I don't know if I'd recommend coming all this way for that, though.
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Hi James,
Thanks for the counterbalancing post, very enlightening.
Portugal sounds to me to be a bit like New Zealand... where you move to slow way down and rewind a few decades... but also a place often oversold as paradise, but in which reality can be quite different, if not harsh for some.
Perhaps an odd question, but I'm just wondering if you feel that the can't do attitude in Portugal is maybe due to some form of masked depression, or is it more of an isolated cultural perk? Are people in Portugal lively in general?
Excuse the poetic license, but where I live people seem to have lost their zest / lust for life, there's no sparkle in people's eyes, folks are dozing off at the wheel, and are collectively fading into shades of grey, and it's the main reason I'm looking to move away, before we go fully numb like them.
I think I can deal with some of the downsides expressed in your post, but I really feel the urge to move somewhere people aren't affraid of life and still have some sparkle in their eyes if you know what I mean...
I had the impression most of southern Europe would be more or less "lively", but the "can't do" aspect caught me by surprise... wondering if you'd have any thoughts on how those two aspects relate, if at all? Thanks! 🙂
Hi Bob,
The "glass half empty" approach is definitely true, but I would say the "can't do attitude" is at least partly down to a lack of opportunities and different priorities rather than people simply being jaded. In Portugal and a lot of Southern Europe, the lust for life is really for things like food and family.
Portugal has a slightly more melancholy approach to life than other Southern European countries, but I think some of the can't do attitude is because people know that so many things involve bureaucracy and other hurdles that it's not just negative but somewhat practical as well.
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Hi Bob,
Where are you at in Portugal? We are thinking of moving there and would love to know more about your observations. Thanks!
Thanks a lot James, your insights are much appreciated. The more melancholic aspect is interesting... I suspect the economic hardship of recent decades may also play a part...
Hi Thalia,
Sorry, hadn't realised my post could be read that way, but I'm not in Portugal. I wrote it from the perspective of someone looking for happier shores and looking at Portugal as a prime candidate to dock my boat.
I got stuck in a foreign country due to an unexpected illness, followed by surgery and then covid logistic complications, but the experience was such an eye opener with regards to how lively other cultures can be. My kids went from being quiet and shy to sparkly bundles of joy and now showing lots of leadership in school and constant praise from teachers, in a space of just 2 years. It's crazy how much one is affected by its environment and local culture. I now dread going back home, but can't stay where we are longterm.
I'm in IT and planning a new business, so looking at options in Europe with good work life balance and favourable business environment... Portugal is among my top 3 choices, along with The Netherlands and Denmark.
I feel I'd probably be a better Dad in a place like Portugal, but a more focused businessman in the other two. I'm leaning more towards Portugal atm..
Have you picked a potential area to live?
I'm wondering if it's feasible to live somewhere along the silver coast but commute to work in a bigger center like Lisbon, Porto or Coimbra. I'd probably commute 2 or 3 days a week, and work remotely otherwise...
Cheers
Forgot to mention the investigative nature of many Portuguese and their businesses. The ones who sent me half of the goods what I paid for their website asked me whether it I would allow them to record my visits and make research on my shopping throughout internet. Gladly there was an option to say NO. The local phone company when they call me they always know so much about me ad not only them, the everyone else as it seems know me to the very fine details including my neighbours who are watching every step of mine while I say hello to them and talk to them, not everyone says hello in return. That makes Portuguese very intelligent people since they are so much into intelligence.
I have been toying with the idea of moving to Spain or Portugal for a couple of years. I live in Northern California, which is very expensive. I love the weather here, and am looking for a similar climate.
My husband is in tech and can work remotely anywhere with decent internet. He has lived as an expatriate in Amsterdam years ago. I have never lived outside the US, but I am up for an adventure.
We could probably live on my husband’s income, but I would like to work as well. Is it hard to earn an income in Portugal? I would need to explore the tax situation as well. We currently pay a lot for health insurance, so if even with higher taxes we might come out ahead. We don’t have young children so schools are not issue.
My dream is to live somewhere not too far from the ocean. I like to garden, so I don’t think I would like to live in a large apartment complex. I don’t need anything fancy, just something comfortable. Is Portugal suitable for a couple like us?
Hi Lindsey,
I think Portugal (or even Spain) could be a good match for you, but it's definitely somewhere you should research. The minimum wage here is quite low so, yes, you could work, but you wouldn't earn a lot and job opportunities are limited. I think you'd probably be better trying to find a remote job in the US that you could do from here.
If you're serious about Portugal, booking a phone call with an accountant/tax advisor is definitely a good idea.
Essentially half of Portugal's border is surrounded by the coast, so there are a lot of places to choose from. Popular coastal destinations include the whole of the Algarve, the coastal Alentejo, Setúbal, the Silver Coast, and places near Lisbon like Cascais, Costa da Caparica, and Estoril. It all depends on your budget and needs. You can definitely find a house with a bit of a garden (depending on your budget) although apartments are much more common.
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Hi Bob
As a Dane thinking about partially moving to Portugal at least buying a property there it would be interesting to hear your reasons for your top 2 choices - both Portugal and Denmark and your pros/cons comparing those 😉
Thanks in advance
I have lived in Portugal since few months now, mainly because of the NHR regime, not because I felt love in the country during some tourist trips. In fact, it is my first time here.
Some of my thoughts I would like to share:
1. Slow, things are slow. Professionals are slow and quite expensive for the average salaries here and service provided. So, taking a lawyer or any type of professional won't save you from the bureaucracy.
2. Weather is quite nice, but not phenomenal like in south of Spain or Canarias, because of the chilly winds. Beaches are great though.
3. I think people are quite friendly, but not very open to strangers. Finding friends would be probably difficult. Older people are definitely traditionalists and I definitely wouldn't move to a Portuguese village looking for some modern vibes. Had more good experiences than bad ones, especially with younger people.
4. It is quite expensive. Gas, rentals, good food, services etc. Living in some trendy places would be even more expensive. It is something to consider for those who can afford only a farm house in rural Portugal but would like to live among academics, think twice. Either you can afford it, or you have to live next to some farmers with barking dogs. It is still better than cheapest areas in USA or Germany with scarier things than chained dogs, but not necessarily a great place to live.
5. It feels very safe compared to many western countries. However, driving culture is questionable.
The thing about buying an old house in Portugal in the sticks is that most Portuguese don't want old houses in the sticks. They want new, modern homes. So if you don't like living there, your pool of buyers will be limited to other ex-pats who are as gullible as you were.
We are living a bit north of Lisbon for several years and I wouldn't recommend living too far away from Lisbon. Unless I had heaps of money I also wouldn't want to live in Lisbon or along the Marginal to Cascais. So, the souther Silver Coast and at least 15 minutes by car away from the Atlantic is pretty good.
But would you really want to live "in the sticks" and on top of that renovate an old house with potentially incompetent trades people. I wouldn't want to do it.
Thank you for your thoughtful, balanced post! Very useful.
Hi Todd. One of the best posts. I also live in CA (Sacramento area) and thinking of permanet residency in Portugal. Safety and security is my big concern and I was born in the Azores, have a passport and ID card so that helps. I'm retired comfortably. Thinking of various barrios. I've visited Lisbon 4 times and know the city pretty well.I like the Parque das Nações area but would want a studio for the first year. Did you have a realtor? Is s/he still doing same work? I'm looking to May 2022 for move, so still have lots of time. (I've done Peace Corps so 'hardship' is no problem for me though Lisbon wouldn't fit that category.) Any help would be appreciated.
Great post, Poppy. As an expat for 20 years now in France, I can agree with all that you've said. Just curious, are you still living in GR? We are looking at that as a future option.
Hello, Deborah!
If you have a Portuguese Grandmother , you should try to get the necessary information about your requirement in the Portuguese Embasy in Switzerland !
If you and your family can, visit the country , continental ( the north is very beautifull) and the islands ( Some people call them the pearls of the Atlantic).
Have you learn some Portuguese with your grandmother?
although it is a small country in area , It is big in many cultural areas!
I am probably mispesling every thing so i am stoping here!
Wish you the the best !
Hey Martin,
I'm Junior I am 31yrs old I live In NYC, USA. My girlfriend has her heart set on moving to Portugal sometime in the near future, however I am skeptical about this move as I'm fearful of many of the items mentioned on this list especially the job market. I currently work in IT support and my girlfriend is a lawyer, I did notice in the article most expats bring their work with them. My girlfriend is trying to persuade me by the mention of being able to grow cannabis in Portugal. Point is I was just looking for your thoughts on my background and your current experiences living in Portugal. Also thank you for your post.
Its true...there is no healthy médium class standard in portugal housing unfortunately, like italy or france..lets Face it, is more ibérica or Arabic quality in portugal.You might get burnt alive in those 70 k prairie houses or petrify inside. And about people what can u say, there s 5 Lovely old women and the rest, is just questionin what the f..is your deal in their country, sort of...can i invade you or are you rich? hahah they re the ultímate trickers(No, we Know...you are better than Brasilians.. sure!), Middle east a bit further up
I'll chime in.
We've been here for almost 4 years, but today, I can officially say I regret our decision to move here.
I have been trying to get my 79 year old mother vaccinated here. The government has officially declared that everyone, even if they are not legally here, can get the vaccine. My mother has completely legal residency here. I have been to the local health centre three times now, to try to get her 'utente' number, without which they will not vaccinate her. They keep asking me for something different that I do not have, each time I go there. They have even asked me for a document that I was able to explain to them made no sense, so they retracted that demand. Today I brought the document they told me was needed last time I was there: they barely looked at it, and asked me for something new.
Online, the health authority says you need only two things to get this 'utente' number: a residency card, and a tax number. I had both of these at the ready the very first time I went there. But in Portugal, there is no such things as standardisation across government offices. In your local offices, they can make up anything they want. You will get a different story about what documentation you should bring, from each new individual you ask. And their word will be law. And you'd better hope that person is there the next time you come in, or the 'law' will probably change. And if that person is there, you'd better hope they are in a good mood, like your face, and that they remember what they told you.
I knew this about Portugal before moving here: we starting having these sorts of experiences from the very moment we called the Portuguese consulate in Melbourne, Australia. And we were able to make our peace with it... until now. Because now, with the pandemic and the risk we take every time we get sent on a new wild goose chase to another office, to get another document that the health centre shouldn't even be asking for, this is actually dangerous.
My mother is 79 - they have finished vaccinating her age group here months ago. I even signed her up on a web page for people to get vaccinated with no 'utente' number, but nobody ever contacted us. My mother has been in her 1 bedroom apartment, non-stop, for over one year now. Her mental health is suffering. I can put up with all kinds of stupidity, until it becomes dangerous.
We're here now. We probably won't move again. My mother is too old, and my partner and I are too tired. But for any of you who are wondering whether Portugal is right for you: heed my story. If you move here, on a long enough timeline, chances are this kind of tipping point may well happen for you too.
My previous comment seems to have not survived mediation review.
I took a lot of time to relate my experience, but in the interest of not redoubling that effort, this one will be short.
Labyrinthine bureaucracy coupled with poor training and incompetence makes for frustration and a hamstrung economy in normal times. In times of pandemic, it is dangerous.
I respect your experience if it is not exaggerated.
But we've had fibre internet in Madeira since 2017, and it has been remarkably stable and VERY fast. Our gigabit connection is about 10 times faster than what was available for the price in Australia.
In 4 years, we've had two faults that have lasted a few days, and a technician had to come out to fix something at the box.
On the whole, the experience has been really quite good.
I can second this, although we've also had people become hostile when confronted.
It is rare: I'd say this line cutting happens to us maybe 4 times per year, with a hostile one every couple of years. But that's still 100% more than it happened to us in Australia, NZ, Canada or the UK.
France has it's share of this phenomena too...
David,
The barking dogs is a big deal for us. We've been living in Portugal for 4 years and are about to move to another locale, in part to achieve a better noise profile.
My advice is spend some time in the prospective locales. Don't be lulled by apparent quiet and always suspect there is a dog next door, just waiting for you to sign the deed before he starts barking.
We've had sellers lie to our faces about whether loud dogs were around. We asked them, and they said 'oh no'. Three seconds later, the neighbour's dog started up.
There ARE pockets with no dogs. You have to find them, and then of course you have to pray the dogs won't arrive after you've bought. But you can find set ups where that kind of thing is not likely to ever be much of a problem.
Hi there, first of all my sincere apologies not only as a portuguese native but as someone who lived her last 10 years in developed countries such Netherlands, Belgium and UK and just return to be close to my own family. I am really sorry that you and your mother are going through all that, but as a portuguese and as a human being I am making myself available to help. Let me know what clinique you re using and some more details so I can talk with those bastards.
Setubal is the best ⭐️
A belated thanks for this very helpful list.
I am a dual UK/Canadian citizen and was considering retiring to Portugal because of the D7 visa and its much lower income requirement than Spain (now that Brexit has made the UK a third country).
I couldn't receive my pensions till after Jan 2021 so can't clear the Spanish financial bar. Portugal appealed, for many reasons, and I already speak passable Spanish and am learning Portuguese.
However, research and your list have convinced me to stick to extended visits in the Med instead of upping sticks totally. After all, we still have 90 of every 180 days to spend in the EU. I abhor the extremist, nationalist political climate in England specifically. So six months abroad and a move to Scotland for the other six will suit me. This is a compromise that perhaps more should consider.
Public authorities never answer. I wanted to know more about vaccination and wrote to them three times. no answer I called a phone number that was provided in the automatic reply . NO ANSWER!
Instead of spending EU money for cycle lanes that lead to nowhere, these folks should be forced to bring their public services to an average EU standard at least before they can claim new funds from the hilarious EU!
Hi James,
You've generated a productive debate, teased out a lot of feedback, thank you. Tales of corruption and neglect are very familiar and are not Portugal specific. It's more likely to affect immigrants or the poorest of locals, again, like everywhere else. I appreciate how painful the dashed hopes for sunny, orderly, cultural paradise can be.
At the end of it all is a question - "is it worth it for me & my family?". This is what expats are saying here, in comments, and I couldn't agree more. EVERY country has a historic context, a lot of common behaviour is a result of adaptation to adverse conditions of the past (or present). It takes a generation or two for serious changes to take roots. There is no quick fixes. There is no paradise. But it is possible to find a likeminded community where you feel home enough, even if the dogs go spastic barking for hours.
Thanks everyone for sharing opinions, hope you all find happy living compromise in Portugal. I am going to, once the pandemic is dealt with.
P.S. I found that Pimsleur European Portuguese audio course is good, old school learn/practice method.
I am so glad I rented, after 2.5 years and a pandemic I know what I have to do!
WOW!! What a bunch of whingers. I get there will be some downsides to living in PT and some of these items raised are no doubt real. Anywhere you live will have bad and good points. Would say you have left somewhere for the same reasons. Wherever you live wont be perfect. Maybe some of you (not all) just are miserable and will be unhappy wherever you live.
Anyway I am still going to move over there within next 6-9 months. I hope I dont turn into one of the many in hear.
Although I appreciate your comments, it is quite obvious you are not from, nor have ever lived in, the "glamorous" city of Miami. Corruption? Bureaucracy? Customer service? Closed social circles? Expensive? Noise? Driving? OMG, I'm on the FLOOR lmao!!! Portugal is a piece of cake, comparatively speaking!!!
Definitely take up Daniela on her offer. I took a pt friend to get set up with medical and she bossed them around until they sorted it out. By yourself they can just keep ignoring you.
You make so many excellent points - thank you!
Thank you for handling that perfectly Paula.
Hi Kyle are you still in Evora? I'm a Brit and have been living here with my husband for 4 years. Could be good to meet up.
If you can't learn Portuguese, forget about learning Danish. I spent a summer there and never got past "Hi." Fortunately, as a swing dancer, I had a ready-made social scene and met and became friendly with dozens of like-minded people almost overnight. I highly recommend joining a club to ANYBODY moving to a foreign country. If it hadn't been for swing dancing, I doubt I would've made any friends at all.
Incidentally, your list is very insightful and has nudged me towards exploring my alternatives: Belgium or the Netherlands. Dutch is probably an easier language to learn than Portuguese, and culturally I feel they're a better fit for me. All the best, and good luck with your decision.
Good for you Daniela
Hey,
I will just share my thoughts based on my experience.
I don't know a lot of cannabis business here, but I would assume there are many regulations for that, especially if someone wants to do if for profit. Decriminalized use might sounds good, and it probably is, as long we speak about your own use. I don't think you can grow big quantities and sell it without permits. Not in EU, especially not in Portugal.
If your girlfriend is a lawyer licensed in USA and have studied the American law, I don't think that there is a lot of work for her in Portugal. Maybe some international companies which are doing business in USA. Local lawyers companies practicing Portuguese law probably not really.
Yes, most expats bring their work with them, or are financially independent. Salaries doesn't seem very high in Portugal, you have to speak the language in the most cases. Furthermore, they have decent amount of immigrants from former Portuguese colonies who speak the language perfectly. Another thing is that the income tax cat get easily over 40%, so depending from what you earn and what you pay now it is something to consider.
With NHR, which is basically tax benefits program for new residents, you might get a better deal, eventually. Just be careful which lawyer you gonna take who does your paperwork. There are many bad ones.
You should also consider your immigration situation. A lot depends from which passports you and your girlfriend are holding. If you don't have an EU passport you probably gonna need a visa.
I would say it depends.
Some people might actually have some mental problems and always hope to find paradise, just to be completely disappointed short time after arrival.
Others are just not that experienced and have no idea what problems might arise when they move to another country. For example, poorly insulated houses in PT. They are not just cold, it makes also noise levels go up like hell. Narrow streets, poor insulation in houses, a lot of motorcycles and dogs all year long results in very noisy residential areas. Good luck as remote worker or noise sensitive person.
When you look at areas in Lisbon, be sure to evaluate the following noise situations just like in any other city. Check whether you are under an airport flight path. Planes certainly contribute to noise if you like to have your windows open. We stayed at a hotel under a Lisbon Airport flight path and it was particularly noisy. Another thing to evaluate is if the sound of the traffic vibration over the river bridges. Some people find it soothing, others find it irritating. And, of course, consider ambulance noise if you are close to hospitals. Police and fire equipment noises are hard to predict.
I didn’t think I would put in my 2 cents, but here it goes.
Portuguese people are friendly and caring. There is a difference between the way they behave in their place of employment and the way they behave when at leisure. It’s cultural! In a place of employment, too many smiles comes across as “absent minded/unfocused. It’s a different story when you’re at ease.
You’re not comparing apples with apples. You’re expecting to have your own society values (of no more than 400 years) to be the same as theirs, a country at least 11 centuries old.
I would agree that anything related to paperwork takes a lot of patience and time.
Hi Wes,
What is the name of that old beach town? 🙂
Hello
After reading all these negative comments I am baffled. I just moved two months ago, but I have been coming to Portugal for over twenty years on and off on vacation. I am an European citizen and an us citizen, so for me it is easy. I have already found my house in the silver coast 10 m walk to the beach, both on the ocean and on a bay I have a bit if a view, solar panels, heating and an eco friendly house and over 5000 sq feet of yard and a pool! It is not cheap if you want something nice, but coming from LA it seems reasonable. I am not in the sticks, but not in a city either, I have everything I need and Lisbon is 50 m away. But one thing is sure you need money to hire a good lawyer, I got my NIF in a day! So do your research and live a bit in the place to get a feel! I have an injured knee so I had to get an MRI, I have travel insurance, but have to pay upfront but it was 300 euros! MRI i us is 1000$ or more, and the experience was ok, people were nice and I barely speak Portuguese but I managed, many people do speak English in offices. So it is all relative, got sick of the politics and nastiness in general in the us and after a lifetime there I left. But to note, I did not move back to my native country, I wonder why! So it is not paradise but nothing is anymore, but it is a peaceful country that is making efforts to improve every day. I plan to learn Portuguese, not too difficult for me, and the classes at the local school are free starting September. So make you own opinion on a place, and if you like the sea do not live in the country, and if you like comfort do not buy an old house unless you are prepared to put ton of money and work, this in a foreign country! So this is my take, and by the way it is called silver coast because of the grey mist that comes from the ocean, hey but today is sunny! Good luck
Hi Gillian,
Thoughtfull deed to help those animals in need!
Hurray!
In Portugal most services and companies will more or less spend some effort to attract your money, but after you pay you can forget about it. Once you pay, you are at their mercy and don't expect high quality of service or goods. Forget about a refund unless it is a box store. They will respond to emails at their convenience and most emails won't be responded if it creates inconvenience to them. It's totally unpredictable therefore you must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL (!!!) what you buy and how you send your money. Most means not all. There are honest and hard working companies and serv4ces as well and there are those in the middle range. Yet in general a selfish and unpredictable attitude prevails. Amanhã usually means much much later or never, but never tomorrow or even next week.
Why don't you just move to Florida and turn off the TV (for the politics and ugliness)?
Completely agree , you are obliged to prepay everything and then you can expect the worst. In more developed cpuntries you pay 2 weeks after delivery and can return the items without any sinister restriction.
If you call or email them, you need to have patience and perseverance!
I for my part have decided to refrain from any online purchases alltogether, experience is just too traumatic when you have to deal with lethargic, depressed and unresponsive folks!
I feel exactly the same. Online shopping is not an option. They wont deliver it to your home, you have to pick it up or it disappears. Goods delivered are also neither cheap or of good quality. No option of "supporting the local economy". Amazon is much better, but even then you have to deal with Portuguese shipping companies who don't want to deliver.
Other professionals I met like lawyers, repairmen, internet provider or real estate agents are also very unreliable.
Portugal has some friendly laws/regimes/people, but benefiting from it is another story, because many fundamentals things people take for granted are not working in Portugal. For example, with the documentation it takes to open a simple bank account in Portugal you could open elsewhere several companies
Turning off the TV doesn't help and avoiding politics is almost impossible. Every bar, restaurant and doctor's office in Florida has a news station blaring - and it's a one-sided conversation, with no attempt at being unbiased. We are considering a move from Florida because of the extreme opinions and belligerent, hateful behavior of so many around us. We tend to keep to ourselves anyway so we may as well live in another country.
Your posts are very interesting! Your travels have given you a unique perspective - thanks for sharing 🙂
We are confused reading these various posts. Some say the Portuguese are resentful and unfriendly to foreigners and some posts say they are very nice. Sigh. Can't understand why these perspectives are so drastically different. You would think folks are talking about different countries altogether....
Although I've met plenty of unfriendly people in Portugal (as with anywhere) I would say that the majority of Portuguese people are very nice, polite, charming, and incredibly tolerant of the thousands of people who've chosen to make Portugal their home. However, they're also very reserved, wary of strangers, and stick to their families and circle of friends, so it can be a difficult place to make friends. Hopefully that explains the contradiction a little more.
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Really? This is a blog about living and being comfortable in your space. Please stop with the "leftie politics" stuff and go to Breitbart or some other place that you can voice your dissatisfaction with Californians. Geez.
Really? This is a blog about living and being comfortable in your space. Please stop with the "leftie politics" stuff and go to Breitbart or some other place that you can voice your dissatisfaction with Californians. Geez.
Daniela PLEASE run for political office, become Mayor of a town and clean house of the "bastards" as you call them. All countries have their problems and a list of things that need to change. Italy is easily the closest southern EU competitor to Portugal in terms of the lack of regard for people in government buildings. Of course I refer only to non Italians experience when they are visiting these buildings. Actual Italians would never put up with what goes on here in Portugal. Upset Italians about anything, they all go on strike until they get what they want. Pay in Italy is much higher than in Portugal, and Italians get the most paid days off per year of all EU countries. Portugal has an issue with bank corruption. In Italy when an Italian goes to court against a bank, there is a 70% chance the Italian wins the lawsuit. Italian juries side with the people. Their "take no crap" attitude produces results. Remember the yellow vests in France a couple years ago? Bridges, highways...even the airports were blocked by the upset locals. All of that in-the-street action produced results.
I have a young Portuguese friend who had to wait almost 3 months just to get a drivers license. Ridiculous. In my opinion the Portuguese people settle when they should be mad, organize and demand change.
We used to live in Costa Del Sol, Spain. Estepona has a mayor that actually cares about doing his job. When campaigning he promised a new stadium, a new hospital, and to reduce debt. He did all. Estepona plants more flowers than much richer Marbella. Getting help while visiting a government building there is a given. Estepona operates extremely different (better) than all the others between Malaga and Gibraltar. All this from a new Mayor/attitude.
Things can change for the better. It takes people decent people like you to do it.
Please run for office.
65% of Californians that moved to Boise are Republicans 🙁
Aj, thank you for your positive comments on moving to Portugal. My husband & I are considering the same thing next May. We are looking at Lisbon for 3 months then will decide from there. I, too, hope I remain positive through my experience.
AJ
Although decriminalised cannabis isn't legal. You'd maybe get away with a few plants but anything over 5 or 6 you'd still probably go to jail. Cultivation and owning seeds (weirdly) are contentious issues and you are only supposed to have 10 day supply at a gram a day to get off with a warning which is like a rehabilitation course as far as I can tell.
Unless you're a Canadian or Chinese company investing hundreds of thousands € into medicinal to benefit Swiss and Germans forget it as a business.
Even a small grow is likely to draw attention from neighbours unless in a big city then rents will be high. I've overheard myself been accused of being a narco because why would a foreigner move to a small village in Portugal. A lot of older Portuguese are insular and suspect of foreigners in my experience.
It's a crazy reason to consider such a big change and I doubt you'll be satisfied upon further research. Move to another state which is more accommodating of weed or somewhere that has no issue with it and a cheap cost of living like Colombia or Uruguay. Spanish is easier, cost of living is much cheaper, can use dollars and they are probably better places to live and people to be around. Spain is more tolerant, Czech Republic or Netherlands. It's the worst reason to move here.
Junior, Hi. i am a retired New York attorney, living in Brooklyn Heights. I am not Portuguese, but have owned a vacation home near Lisbon for many years. I may be able to answer many of your questions. This article is excellent, but much of the negatives can be resolved by careful and critical study before choosing the area to live and buying/renting the right place. However, the job market can be problematic. You can contact me at gmresq@yahoo.com.
Suggest you check out Cascais, a large municipality outside of Lisbon. It has everything, including a recently built hospital. There are many areas that make up the Cascais municipality; one that I know is quiet and lovely is Monte Estoril, with its own small park surrounded by all the stores you would need.
I just read the article you cited. While it was a tragic situation, Portugal has a very low crime rate and murders are rare.
More importantly, don’t you want to live in a place where it’s police run towards trouble at the risk of their own lives to help?
In this situation, a plainclothes policeman died after running to help. Another policeman also ran towards the trouble and was killed. The third, the son of the plainclothes policeman, also ran towards the problem to aid his father and he too was shot and in critical condition. Isn’t this the kind of country where you could feel safe?
Relevant section of this article below:
“A plainclothes officer who lived in the area was shot dead as he ran to investigate the row, and a patrol officer then called to the scene was shot in the head and killed.
The third victim was reportedly the son of the plainclothes officer who was trying to help his father.”
Historical Cascais area and surrounding communities, making up the Cascais municipality. Cascais has everything.
thank you jameson !
Hi
I’m looking to move to algrave with my gran, we both hold EU passports. We are currently in South Africa where there are power cuts , no water for days and no real government benefits unless you pay for everything yourself. In terms of creating your own job are expats there more of a community and helping other expats or is it basically Everyman for himself? In terms of opening a small business is there a forum anyone could assist with?
Thank you just so tired of getting no where..
Hi Jaci,
I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. There is a good community of expats in the Algarve, but I imagine that, like anywhere else, you would have to get to know people before asking for favours. If you start a business, ultimately it'll be your responsibility, although I think you'll get plenty of answers to your questions in the various expat Facebook groups (e.g. South Africans helping South Africans).
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Amanda, I live in SE Asia and have identified Funchal as a possible second home. Two questions:
Is the Funchal area good for a bike rider?
What is the bureaucracy (immigration and social services) like in Funchal? I used to live in a major town in my current country of residence and immigration was a nightmare. Recently moved to a town of 65000 and night and day experience. Immigration is very easy to deal with.
We are 75 and 86 and are retired English living in the Algarve…have been coming here on and off for many years to our holiday apartment. Loved it so much that we took out residency pre Brexit, and said Tchau to our friends and family back in Blighty. Of course they can and do come to stay, or did before Covid. Yes I miss them all but thanks to social media can keep in touch. So, do we regret our move? No, it is great here, but I do have some regrets.
The downsides are , for us, the medical issues. Of course we can access the Portuguese national health service and for the one emergency we have had in the last three years, a trip to the local hospital A and E department proved brilliant. Excellent service with timely care and attention. However, our town does not have a family doctor and if we need to renew our prescriptions or see a g.p we have to go to the next large town to the Health Centre to take our chances with whoever is on duty. This might be a Cuban doctor , a Portuguese or whatever, none of whom have spoken English. With my attempts to supply the information needed in rudimentary Portuguese and with the assistance of Mr Google s translations we’ve managed to make ourselves understood. One of us has a long term cancer and the treatment obtained in the U.K. is not available here on the nhs, nor is there a local oncologist…we are met by the Portuguese shrug when we asked for a referral. So, what we do is adopt a pay as you go method. ( we’ve both been turned down for private medical insurance as we are both too old and with existing conditions.)
We visit a private doctor for a repeat of the regular prescriptions we had in the U.K., pay the going rate, order the medication from the pharmacist, paying the going rate and thus find ourselves self medicating. . Blood tests can be obtained locally from private clinics. If anything is untoward then it would be back to the private quack. So far we remain fit and able to function but we do worry what will happen when we get older and and more frail. I do miss the British NHS where you get a yearly medication check etc and you can at least speak to someone on the phone.
The other downside is the post Brexit bureaucracy. We’ve had to change our U.K. driving licences for Portuguese ones and the delays on this are immense. No government departments ever pick up the phone. You have to go to them, queue, make an appointment and then wait sometimes months for resolution. We are waiting for a biometric residency card which has been over a year in the pipeline. And don’t get me started on the online application for a proof of Covid vaccination certificate…..a website in my opinion not fit for purpose.
Another downside…parcels and post. Forget getting international birthday presents and Christmas parcels… you won’t receive them and you can bet the Quinta your parcels won’t reach their destination either! There must be a huge hangar somewhere with abandoned correspondence between Portugal and the rest of the world.
What else is disappointing? Graffiti, dog poo, barking dogs…yes, all that. But not too noticeable in our area fortunately. Maybe worse in the cities.
It’s a bit of a cultural desert in the Algarve though maybe I’m just ignorant about what is possible…I’m interested in the history of the Muslim occupation and this isn’t very well documented… or perhaps not well advertised. I’m working on it. Museums are here but. You’d need the cities for theatre though we sometimes get a special orchestra concert in the next town. Still you can travel further afield for this.
However, we have terrific beaches, boardwalks, nature trails, flowers, mountains, fresh wholesome food, heavenly bread, wine, glorious sunshine, clean public areas, friendly, courteous, helpful honest locals, plenty of societies to join eg. Golf, bridge, yoga, language classes, many charities to whom you can volunteer your time, well stocked markets and shops,bars, cafes, restaurants, a plethora of barbers, hairdressers, nail bars, day spas and so on , churches, crown green bowling, ordinary bowling, football , motor racing, keep fit classes…plenty of different nationalities joining in. No need to feel isolated. If you want peace and quiet you can find places to chill, no problem.
I mustn’t forget to mention Afpop either who are an excellent organisation to join for help and advice on all things relating to your new life in Portugal. They also provide social outings in different areas to get you started off . They’ve been invaluable for residency queries and help with tackling officialdom since we moved here.
I can definitely recommend the Algarve for retirees,as we love our life here, but suggest you air and b or rent somewhere before making the final plunge… and try to get the basics of the language before you come, it really helps.
Hi, Martin.
Like you, I immigrated recently - from Denmark in this case. I am going for the NHR scheme to. Live in a rented apartment in the Seixal area on the southside of the Lisbon river. Am 53 years old and some part time hours on accounting and taxes for danish companies.
On the NHR, I just had a bad experience on my first try to hire a lawyer and accounting in a 2-person-company to help me on the NHR and other tax and finance related topics. After signing and paying, I get no feedback/help.
Martin, do you have an advisor on NHT etc that you can recommend ?
Hi!
I'm Nenye and I'm a Nigerian who is looking to move to Portugal in a few months with my girlfriend. I have lived in the US and China so I have seen my fair share of discrimination based on the colour of my skin. I was wondering if there are any black persons or people of colour who might be willing to share their experiences living in Portugal( preferably living in Lisbon or Porto)
Thanks
Hi Gloria,
Not sure if you would have sufficient context into this but I'm a Nigerian who has lived in USA and China and I have seen my fair share of discrimination and micro-aggression. Do you know what the experience is like for a black foreigner living in Portugal(Lisbon or Porto)
Thanks
We Californians are soooo glad that it's the republicans who are moving out of the state. Good riddance!
Hi, what is a NIF please?
Also its nice to hear what you have to say. Almost everything i read on this site is very discouraging.
Im a 60 yr old retired canadian who wants to move to Portugal, im tired of the winters and high prices, i guess im a little scared to move but i need a change in life, i have a Canadian and maltese passport, does that mean i can live there without all the paperwork since malta is in the European union?
Is the silver coast nice?
Thanks alot.
Val
Hi Val Sammut,
The Silver Coast is very nice. It's becoming very popular with internationals but it's still affordable and authentic.
I would highly recommend coming to Portugal and seeing what you think of it.
Get the book Moving to Portugal Made Simple on Amazon now
Is the Funchal area good for a bike rider?
Absolutely not! Islands too small for bikers unless you like tunnels full of petrol fumes
Funchal stinks of fumes from buses and 100's of taxi's.
Search Margaret Fields before moving to Madeira and check the local papers.
I just read Madeira police stripped naked a 70 year pensioner and chucked him in prison because he had apparently written emails to his debtor in another country.
On Madeira, the blood line is long and deceit is common. Personally, I'd stay away. Bureaucracy is a nightmare, not just on Madeira but also mainland
Try learn the language and integrate? It may be an option
As an immigrant in Portugal it’s about time you learn the language. Why should they speak English to accommodate your needs? Try going to the GP in England, speak Portuguese and complain that don’t understand you!
Excellent post!
I've lived here for 13 years, ranging from Lisbon, to the central interior mountains, to now near the coast by Figueira da Foz. I speak Portuguese fluently but will likely always have my English accent. I'm now a Portuguese citizen. I've been in Rancho Folclórico, briefly in the Bombeiros, and other social groups in Portugal.
There is a substantial amount of camaraderie amongst males, particularly with alcohol involved.
(alcohol consumption is one of the few activities that occur socially in many smaller villages. Small villages exist even near to urban areas, and the mentality will be countryside rather than urban)
I've found it difficult to meet any single women. I find it generally a shy culture, despite the boisterous voices in the café. I see plenty of men out and about, and older folks (the old generation still works hard and moves a lot here, it's inspiring. they "have salt" as it's said.) walking and carrying things about.
I generally get a whiff of "don't bother me please" from women ages 20-50 or so, as if there were pushy men bothering them often. I'm not sure if this is the case, or in which contexts it is (I have female friends who say that the men here on dating apps can be rather vulgur, despite being basically mommy's boys at age 30-40 still, unable to wash or cook properly etc.) as most of the men I see are either married or act otherwise uninterested in flirtation etc, like they would like nothing better than some beers with the boys.
I'm not interested in acting pushy or bothering anyone, but it's been years and years since I dated anyone and I'm not ugly nor poor nor lazy, etc. I'm foreign. I will always be foreign. I will never enter their world, and that basically is clear to me, that underneath all the liberal-minded rhetoric, that one is welcome to be a foreigner spending money here, but that one is probably best off staying in ones own enclave.
I'm not surprised that many Algarvi